4x4 or not?

[joewithaboat]

Re: 4x4 or not?

Bluelight,
Not sure what you are so upset about???
You shouldn't expect to be able to post inaccurate information and not have someone correct it.
Sorry

 

[BlueLightSpecial]

Re: 4x4 or not?

What is inaccurate about what I said? I never indicated that a posi was a locker. Perhaps I worded it wrong. I was a Nissan tech for 11 years or so, and even the factory trainers would say never call a limited slip a posi. Posi barely slips. They were very persistent in explaining that a v/c is a true limited slip, however its limited slip properties became more open diff as heat builds and the silicone fluid thins out. Perhaps I have a hard time putting thoughts into words, but I guess in my eyes, a limited slip is a v/c , and posi, sure grip etc is just positive traction. I guess I got a little out of hand, but there is a difference. I now work on commercial vehicles. When I hear domestic vehicle having limited slip, I think viscous. I guess the domestics haven't started using that technology. What I am trying to say is, I have been out of the automotive loop, and just assumed the new trucks have a v/c when they advertise limited slip. My 2008 dodge has an open diff, so I don't have one to look at, therefore, I assumed and you know how the saying goes...

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: 4x4 or not?

What is inaccurate about what I said? I never indicated that a posi was a locker. Perhaps I worded it wrong. I was a Nissan tech for 11 years or so, and even the factory trainers would say never call a limited slip a posi. Posi barely slips. They were very persistent in explaining that a v/c is a true limited slip, however its limited slip properties became more open diff as heat builds and the silicone fluid thins out. Perhaps I have a hard time putting thoughts into words, but I guess in my eyes, a limited slip is a v/c , and posi, sure grip etc is just positive traction. I guess I got a little out of hand, but there is a difference. I now work on commercial vehicles. When I hear domestic vehicle having limited slip, I think viscous. I guess the domestics haven't started using that technology. What I am trying to say is, I have been out of the automotive loop, and just assumed the new trucks have a v/c when they advertise limited slip. My 2008 dodge has an open diff, so I don't have one to look at, therefore, I assumed and you know how the saying goes...

It appears you were trained wrong...You are just mixing up terminology. A posi and a v/c are both Limited slip. They are very different but both fall under the same category. I doubt very seriously that you will find a v/c in any domestic vehicles. The ones i know of were very prone to problems. Mazda miata comes to mind. I think some AWD euro cars use them.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: 4x4 or not?

a viscous coupler is not a differential .... there ARE however speed sensitive limited slip differentials that use a viscous fluid to activate them. They are as you suspected far more common in imported all wheel drive cars but have also been in domestics.
positraction is indeed a brand name owned by GM

Here is a wikipedia link that will tell you just about anything you want to know about limited slip diffys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential

Bluelight, I'm glad to see you've calmed down and regrouped.... One thing about talking with hundreds or even thousands of people at once on a forum.... You are bound to find others who disagree with you whether you are right or wrong..... some are just looking to argue.... some just like to debate details..... others really are just trying to perfect the info to help others.... even in the last group bad info gets posted sometimes and tempers sometimes flare.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: 4x4 or not?

See, now smoke gets to correct both of us. Dang it, Lol.
A viscous coupler and a viscous differential are two different things. We have both been using the v/c term wrong.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: 4x4 or not?

See, now smoke gets to correct both of us. Dang it, Lol.
A viscous coupler and a viscous differential are two different things. We have both been using the v/c term wrong.

Yeah but who wants to brag that they got a v/d in their new car?

 

[BlueLightSpecial]

Re: 4x4 or not?

ok guys. I pulled out my old training materials from Nissan. One of which is from the 1995 Nissan 240SX new model training course. Now keep in mind, we didnt go over every aspect, at least I dont remember going over it. Here is a quote from the NMT manual.
Also keep in mind that the term S14 is a chassis generation designation code for the 95-98 240SX. "240SX (S14) with SE trim, also comes equipped with the R200V rear axle, which incorporates a viscous coupler limited slip differential unit, which unlike clutch type limited slip differentials, offers smooth limited slip reactions, with no harsh engagement. The Viscous Coupler is designed for smooth operation to increase traction on low traction surfaces, and increase driver and passenger comfort." So, I proved MYSELF wrong. Now, I am trying to locate my notes from the nissan driveline class that I took, because in my notes, I wrote down what the instructor said about comparing the v/c to the posi. I may be remembering it all wrong, it was 17+ years ago. The term, Viscous Coupler, must be a Nissan term for viscous differential. My appologies for getting pissy over this whole thing, and hijacking this thread. I do remember the instructor stating that the clutch style diff, works better in slippery conditions, than the viscous coupler, and he made it clear that he was stating this, off the record, because he normally has to be "Team Nissan" during the classes. My thinking is, Nissan used the viscous, to eliminate or reduce drive line shock, that could cause the wheels to slip and lose traction. I think they were looking for a smooth engagement, kind of like slipping a clutch to keep wheels from spinning. Again my appologies.:redface:

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: 4x4 or not?

No problem.....
Back to the original post, I have to pay attention to the ramps I use because I have a v6 powered SUV with an open differential. We can't all squeeze into my v8 powered ext cab pickup, which has a posi. It slips at the ramp more than my little underpowered SUV. Still won't make me buy 4x4.
I bet i stand on the bumper of someone's pickup, to give traction aid, 1 out of every 3 times we launch.

 

[chaffinyo]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I tow mostly with AWD(2004 Durango 4.7 v8 AWD, and 2000 OLDS Bravada 4.3 V6 AWD (posilock)) and with the Bravada its a 2x4 till the wheels slip then AWD, and never had it kick into awd on a CEMENT ramp, but some DIRT ramps( damn iowa small lakes :/) so i would look for a small suv or truck with 4x4/AWD and call it a day

 

[jkust]

Re: 4x4 or not?

Old thread but I have all suv's and live in MN where 4wd is a must when towing snowmobiles and a fallback when pulling my boat out. You use it all the time in the winter in automatic 4wd mode and depending on the ramp, once in a while each summer at the ramp. It allows me to use the less busy but poorer maintained ramps at busy lakes so I can get a parking spot. I wouldn't accept a brand new truck for free if it was not a 4x4 if it meant I had to drive it as a tow vehicle. My trucks have locking differentials and one has a limited slip and each has computer controlled traction control as well that acts to limit slip electronically on any or all wheels. The times I've needed 4wd, I really needed it where the locker and traction control wasn't cutting it and because I am self sufficient, I wouldn't rely on someone else to pull my truck out even if there was someone around and many times there isn't. In MN, in my circles and my lifestyle, asking if 4wd is a necessity is literally unheard of. I'd insert a great analgy but I've never met anyone that willingly purchased a 2wd truck here so as not to have the built in insurance policy of 2 extra drive wheels. When I see them rarely for sale, they were southern trucks and languish on dealer lots similar to a small cuddy. Every year I do encounter the rare 2wd truck at a ramp struggling to get out. Ignoring winter where the 4awd is always kicking in, you rarely use it and I actually like when I truly need it.

 

[Silver Eagle]

Re: 4x4 or not?

4x4 alway's, If you don't need it today , You will have it when you need it.

 

[buildmark]

Re: 4x4 or not?

it all depends on the ramps you use. I can pull my boat with my dodge caravan but can't launch it in most of the ramps that I go to. I use my 4x4 at the boat launch. some of the launches that I go to are not the best and some are steep and I have needed 4 wheel drive on more than one occasion. I have also pulled others up the ramp with my strap when it's wet and or too steep. So in my case, more than not, 4x4 is needed.

But there are a lot of nice ramps out there that don't need 4x4 so it's all in where you go. Since I live where it snows, 4x4 is real nice to have and serves me well as a tow vehicle too.

 

[DonHof]

Re: 4x4 or not?

Last year a guy with a two wheel drive truck tried to get up the ramp at the lake. Took eight guy's to push
him up the hill!

 

[bucket of rivets]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I've been using a 4x2 F150 for over 30 years, with all size boats and never had an issue. At best if the boat is heavier I'll toss in some extra weight over the rear axle. With a properly loaded trailer and truck, and some common sense 4x2 should be all you need on most paved ramps.
Since I don't tow the boat daily, it wouldn't make much sense to have a 4x4 for daily driving. The added moving parts only cost more to maintain. (Bigger or more aggressive tires, extra drive axle and shaft, etc.).
If I were launching from a beach or muddy bank then I'd probably go with a 4x4.
A buddy carries a few old water cooler bottles he can fill up if he needs to, and dumps them out after he's off the ramp. That way he don't carry all that weight around for nothing.

 

[bigdee]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I've been using a 4x2 F150 for over 30 years, with all size boats and never had an issue. At best if the boat is heavier I'll toss in some extra weight over the rear axle. With a properly loaded trailer and truck, and some common sense 4x2 should be all you need on most paved ramps.
Since I don't tow the boat daily, it wouldn't make much sense to have a 4x4 for daily driving. The added moving parts only cost more to maintain. (Bigger or more aggressive tires, extra drive axle and shaft, etc.).
If I were launching from a beach or muddy bank then I'd probably go with a 4x4.
A buddy carries a few old water cooler bottles he can fill up if he needs to, and dumps them out after he's off the ramp. That way he don't carry all that weight around for nothing.

That is a good common sense answer. At most public ramps there are plenty of 4x4s around that are willing to show off thier macho and help you if you should ever need it. I have used 2wd for over 10 years without a problem. I just bought a 4x4 but not for that reason.

 

[jkust]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I've been using a 4x2 F150 for over 30 years, with all size boats and never had an issue. At best if the boat is heavier I'll toss in some extra weight over the rear axle. With a properly loaded trailer and truck, and some common sense 4x2 should be all you need on most paved ramps.
Since I don't tow the boat daily, it wouldn't make much sense to have a 4x4 for daily driving. The added moving parts only cost more to maintain. (Bigger or more aggressive tires, extra drive axle and shaft, etc.).
If I were launching from a beach or muddy bank then I'd probably go with a 4x4.
A buddy carries a few old water cooler bottles he can fill up if he needs to, and dumps them out after he's off the ramp. That way he don't carry all that weight around for nothing.

You need to fill out your profile since your location is key to this discussion. Again, in the ice zone where the side roads never melt and main roads get aweful as well, a 4x4 or more aptly a 4x4 with on demand 4x4 option is nice to have. I'm not talking the all of the midwest just the northern most parts of it. Compare it to air conditioning, here in MN we could easily get away with out AC in the house or the car but in the southern states it would be challenging. I've gone entire summers without turning the AC on in the house or the car.

 

[Mike Zee]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I ran a 2wd for years never had a problem. But I vote 4wd. I have 2, an F150 and a Expedition. Don't use 4wd much at all, but boy what a comfort to look at those levers and switches and know I can. I used to have to plot my course according to the trucks capabilities, now I don't even care.

 

[Mike Zee]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I've been using a 4x2 F150 for over 30 years, with all size boats and never had an issue. At best if the boat is heavier I'll toss in some extra weight over the rear axle. With a properly loaded trailer and truck, and some common sense 4x2 should be all you need on most paved ramps.
Since I don't tow the boat daily, it wouldn't make much sense to have a 4x4 for daily driving. The added moving parts only cost more to maintain. (Bigger or more aggressive tires, extra drive axle and shaft, etc.).
If I were launching from a beach or muddy bank then I'd probably go with a 4x4.
A buddy carries a few old water cooler bottles he can fill up if he needs to, and dumps them out after he's off the ramp. That way he don't carry all that weight around for nothing.

I don't think modern 4x4's cost anything more to maintain. I'm at 144000 miles with just reccomended oil changes, and a coil. Nothing done under the truck except for brakes 2 times. Trucks 10 years old, and I don't off road or abuse it. Unless you count dragging my boat all around, then it truly is tested!

 

[jkust]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I don't think modern 4x4's cost anything more to maintain. I'm at 144000 miles with just reccomended oil changes, and a coil. Nothing done under the truck except for brakes 2 times. Trucks 10 years old, and I don't off road or abuse it. Unless you count dragging my boat all around, then it truly is tested!

Maybe not for every truck but there is potential and where there is potential, there is a blanket argument to be made by someone in a 2wd. The logic to me is along the lines of the 3.0 vs 4.3 argument to use a boating analagy. I will say that in my suv format, once in a while you hear about an encoder motor going out or a seal as well. Encoder motor isn't a ton and a seal isn't too bad either but there's the argument. I'll gladly replace anything in the 4x4 system in order to have it available when I need it. If cost was the concern, I wouldn't own a boat and wouldn't need trucks or v8's and wouldn't spend 1/3 as much as a car every fill up.

 

[bucket of rivets]

Re: 4x4 or not?

I've got a buddy that thinks that way, maybe a bit to the extreme though. He's got a 16' aluminum boat and he bought a GMC3500 4x4 with a diesel. He only uses it to tow the boat, it's 4 years old with 900 miles on it. It costs him big money for full coverage insurance, the boat cost over $12K, the truck over $40K.
I've got a comparable boat, with a 35 year old motor that goes the same places his does, and probably on less fuel, and my 26 year old 4x2 F150 with 60,400 miles on it costs me only $300 a year to insure and it gets 18 mpg towing any one of my old boats. Since my truck isn't new, there's places I'll take my truck that he wouldn't dare go with his shiny new black truck.
I bought this truck for multiple purposes, I paid $7,500 for it brand new in 1986, it was the cheapest truck with an 8' bed I could find. It was by far the best choice then and still is with the way gas prices have gone lately. Back then gas was a buck a gallon.
My boat cost the old guy who bought it new back in 1971 $299, and the 9.5HP motor cost me $50 at a yard sale. I got the boat for nothing 30 years ago.
I just don't see the reason to spend any more cash to do the same thing.
If my truck was 4x4, I'd have another axle to service, another set of U joints to maintain, and no doubt it would get a few less mpg due to both weight and drag. The 4x2 set up is plain and simple, nothing fancy to break, no expensive parts. No A/C, no radio, vinyl bench seat, no carpet to get muddy, nothing to worry about when I leave it at the ramp too. An automatic trans would make launching a bit easier but it would take away at least one mpg or so on the road. In this economy every penny counts. The way I see it, fishing should be cheaper than buying the fish in the first place, if its not, well then whats the sense?
My truck is my primary transportation, it gets driven to work and to the river on weekends. Before I had my truck I used a car, a 1970 Ford Maverick with a 200ci 6 cylinder with a three speed stick. If someone hadn't of run into it at the super market back then I'd probably still be driving it. For years I carried my boat on the roof of the car, and the motor in the trunk. When I bought the truck, I added the $6 per year expense of a trailer tag.
When it snows, I don't take the boat out, if the water is frozen to the point the ramp is icy, there's not much reason to put the boat in. I can only think of one or two ramps where traction can be an issue but rarely does it concern me with a boat and trailer that weigh under 1200 lbs. Even with my older, larger boat my 4x2 was fine. Never once did I feel the need for 4x4. Even when it snows here, I always get out and get to work. I've never missed a day of work due to snow or ice, even when we get bigger snow storms, the plows keep up and a little weight in the bed and it's all good.