2019 Volvo V8 380 C-M won't start unless i give it throttle

[websterama]

I recently purchased a 2019 Chaparral 277 SSX with 100 hours on its Volvo Penta V8 380
The Sea-trial and initial launch were perfectly fine.

Literally the next day I went to start the engine and it wouldn't.
Cranks fine, but then won't catch/stay running.

Here's a video of it doing this

After posting in a Chaparral forum, somebody suggested a workaround which i have tried, and it sometimes does the trick. Putting the throttle in "throttle-only" position by hitting the button in center, and then pushing it forward to give the engine some gas before attempting to crank it. It's fiddly and sometimes requires me to jiggle it around during crank, but 50% of the time that will do it. I've also opened the fuel caps thinking maybe it was vapor locked ?
After it starts in this way, i can pull the throttle back to neutral and it purrs like a kitten.
So it doesn't idle rough, etc..
This workaround doesn't make a ton of sense to me, as this is a fuel injection system not a carb?

I've replaced the batteries, just to make sure they weren't old/tired etc.
I've checked the fuel filter (no water present), checked the fuel pressure at low/high side (after having heard that these are common failure points) and they look to me to be within norms (as a non-expert).

Other things people have suggested as places to look (throttle position sensor, idle control, etc.) are beyond my ability to mess with as a non-engineer I fear.

One thing to note is the boat wasn't used much last year, and was stored with half a tank of gas, which is why i started with fuel filter looking for water, etc... But it doesn't seem like that's the issue based on how well it runs once started and what i saw in fuel filter.

I'd love to be told to just take it over to the gas dock and fill it all the way with new fuel and that will fix it. But I've been to nervous about getting stuck at gas dock to do it until I've looked at other things that might be culprit.

Anyway folks told me this forum is the place to go so I'm hoping (praying) there's some simple thing I'm doing wrong or way to figure out what this is from those symptoms.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[muc]

Welcome to iBoats.
what fuel pressures did you measure? What was the PSI?

 

[websterama]

Welcome to iBoats.
what fuel pressures did you measure? What was the PSI?

It was jumping around between 10-20 on the low pressure schrader valve and 55-60 or so on the high pressure side

 

[muc]

Those numbers are normal, the fuel pressure at those pumps will fluctuate because the ECM uses PWM (pulse width modulation) to control them.
Your engine is EFI high pressure direct injection. This means that you have a 3rd fuel pump under the intake manifold. This pump ups the pressure to 800-2000 psi at the injectors. The only way to monitor this high pressure is with a scan tool. There is a table in the service manual that lists what pressure you should see based on RPM and engine load.

Unfortunately the advice you have received so far probably won’t help, based on idle control and throttle position sensor This engine doesn’t have them as replaceable parts.

I agree that trying to drive the boat to the gas dock might not be a good idea. You could use a temporary fuel can and some 3/8” fuel line to see what happens. That’s really about the only thing a person without the correct equipment and knowledge can do in this situation.

I’m guessing that you will need to contact a Volvo Penta dealer to get this resolved. I don’t know how many Volvo dealers you have near you, but if you can find one with a tech who has attended Volvo factory school for these new direct injection engines. It will probably save you money even if their hourly rate is higher. But you do need a Volvo dealer.

You are wondering why this engine will sometimes start when you move the throttle lever. This is probably because by doing that you are tricking the ECM to believe that one of the sensors is faulty and the computer will substitute a default value for that sensor. It’s more of a “get home” result than a fix. This is a pretty smart engine and will try to compensate for many different possible failures.

 

[websterama]

Those numbers are normal, the fuel pressure at those pumps will fluctuate because the ECM uses PWM (pulse width modulation) to control them.
Your engine is EFI high pressure direct injection. This means that you have a 3rd fuel pump under the intake manifold. This pump ups the pressure to 800-2000 psi at the injectors. The only way to monitor this high pressure is with a scan tool. There is a table in the service manual that lists what pressure you should see based on RPM and engine load.

Unfortunately the advice you have received so far probably won’t help, based on idle control and throttle position sensor This engine doesn’t have them as replaceable parts.

I agree that trying to drive the boat to the gas dock might not be a good idea. You could use a temporary fuel can and some 3/8” fuel line to see what happens. That’s really about the only thing a person without the correct equipment and knowledge can do in this situation.

I’m guessing that you will need to contact a Volvo Penta dealer to get this resolved. I don’t know how many Volvo dealers you have near you, but if you can find one with a tech who has attended Volvo factory school for these new direct injection engines. It will probably save you money even if their hourly rate is higher. But you do need a Volvo dealer.

You are wondering why this engine will sometimes start when you move the throttle lever. This is probably because by doing that you are tricking the ECM to believe that one of the sensors is faulty and the computer will substitute a default value for that sensor. It’s more of a “get home” result than a fix. This is a pretty smart engine and will try to compensate for many different possible failures.

Thanks for the context and explainer and suggestions.
I’m having a hard time locating a Volvo tech of any kind at moment, let alone one with the training you describe. I live on the coast in Connecticut and I’m happy to pay anyone to travel if anyone on here has any leads.

I’m curious what the issue might be though since this didn’t turn up during sea trial or launch. Miscalibrated ECM setting? A loose connection? A fried circuit or relay?

Only thing out of the ordinary was that we had to jump start it during initial launch as it has been sitting for a bit and the batteries were original ones. I’ve since replaced them. But assuming that simply jumping it wouldn’t have damaged or tripped something on the ecm.

 

[muc]

Thanks for the context and explainer and suggestions.
I’m having a hard time locating a Volvo tech of any kind at moment, let alone one with the training you describe. I live on the coast in Connecticut and I’m happy to pay anyone to travel if anyone on here has any leads.

I’m curious what the issue might be though since this didn’t turn up during sea trial or launch. Miscalibrated ECM setting? A loose connection? A fried circuit or relay?

Only thing out of the ordinary was that we had to jump start it during initial launch as it has been sitting for a bit and the batteries were original ones. I’ve since replaced them. But assuming that simply jumping it wouldn’t have damaged or tripped something on the ecm.

Yes, finding a trained tech can be hard especially one that has the time to travel this time of the season. Might have to look at getting the boat to them. But I'm guessing you do need one.

I don't know why this problem is showing up now. I have found most failures just happen. Ran good yesterday, won't run today. Is something I've heard many times. Voltage, heat, humidity and vibration are the usual suspects.
Miscalibrated ECM setting? --- almost a zero chance of this unless the ECM had a failure.
A loose connection? -- yes highly possible or a faulty sensor.
A fried circuit or relay? --- A slight possibility.

But assuming that simply jumping it wouldn’t have damaged or tripped something on the ecm. --- Actually, low voltage, high voltage and voltage spikes are the number one killer of ECMs. When jumping a low battery it's best to let the donor vehicle run and charge the low battery for 5-10 minutes, then shut off the vehicle when cranking the boat. This reduces the possibility of spikes.

Listening to the video you posted, sure sounds like it's not cranking at full speed. Suggest a voltage drop test or check and clean all connections.

 

[websterama]

Yes, finding a trained tech can be hard especially one that has the time to travel this time of the season. Might have to look at getting the boat to them. But I'm guessing you do need one.

I don't know why this problem is showing up now. I have found most failures just happen. Ran good yesterday, won't run today. Is something I've heard many times. Voltage, heat, humidity and vibration are the usual suspects.
Miscalibrated ECM setting? --- almost a zero chance of this unless the ECM had a failure.
A loose connection? -- yes highly possible or a faulty sensor.
A fried circuit or relay? --- A slight possibility.

But assuming that simply jumping it wouldn’t have damaged or tripped something on the ecm. --- Actually, low voltage, high voltage and voltage spikes are the number one killer of ECMs. When jumping a low battery it's best to let the donor vehicle run and charge the low battery for 5-10 minutes, then shut off the vehicle when cranking the boat. This reduces the possibility of spikes.

Listening to the video you posted, sure sounds like it's not cranking at full speed. Suggest a voltage drop test or check and clean all connections.

Thanks again. I did replace the batteries since this video was taken, so it has more grunt at crank now for sure. I can definitely go check/clean the connections to make sure there's nothing else going on.

Very stupid question....

I see 3 holes where it looks like something would be bolted onto the top of the engine, visible here once you remove the plastic shroud/cover.

What goes/went there or what are they for?

 

[muc]

If memory is correct, that’s where the EVC would mount if you had that option.

 

[websterama]

If memory is correct, that’s where the EVC would mount if you had that option.

Not that I expect an easy answer to be found on this diagnostic, but just in case there was something obvious, I hooked a Techmate Pro up to the engine and ran through all the display lines.

Per before, the workaround for starting it remains to put the throttle all the way up to enable cranking to sustain for more than 3 seconds and then pulling the throttle back during crank. It works every time, followed by a very smooth running engine.

Anyway, I doubt i'll be able to pinpoint the issue without finding a local volvo tech with a laptop, but since that's proving difficult I figured I'd post this in case there's some glaring datat point that tells anyone on this forum something useful.

 

[muc]

Didn’t know you had a scan tool.
I haven’t used the techmate pro so I don’t know what it’s capable of.
But in Diacom you would look in the Throttle Monitor section and see what the IVS (Idle validation switch) is doing at closed throttle and when it turns off as you advance the throttle.
Also would be good to watch the two Throttle position sensors as you open and close the throttle.
These tests can be done out of the water. KOEO

 

[Fun Times]

With this engine model there may be a different name to use regarding fault codes that I'm not aware of but I'll ask, since you have a tech pro scan tool, Are there any stored or active fault codes?

While this doesn't seem correct in theory, it's been recently mentioned that if there are any codes present, the engine may not start (correctly?) until they're cleared as mentioned here, https://forums.iboats.com/threads/vp-2014-300hp-v8-duo-prop-35-regal-twin-fly-by-wire.765473/

 

[muc]

With this engine model there may be a different name to use regarding fault codes that I'm not aware of but I'll ask, since you have a tech pro scan tool, Are there any stored or active fault codes?

While this doesn't seem correct in theory, it's been recently mentioned that if there are any codes present, the engine may not start (correctly?) until they're cleared as mentioned here, https://forums.iboats.com/threads/vp-2014-300hp-v8-duo-prop-35-regal-twin-fly-by-wire.765473/

This ECM will store codes 3 places. Active, Previously Active and Pending.

Codes will be reported in the SPN/FMI format and the technician will use the manual to covert them to a DTC to troubleshoot.

It would be interesting if there are any codes.

 

[websterama]

This ECM will store codes 3 places. Active, Previously Active and Pending.

Codes will be reported in the SPN/FMI format and the tech will use the manual to covert them to a DTC to troubleshoot.

It would be interesting if there are any codes.

There was one "active" code...
I've included a picture of it here.
Pretty sure this was in KOEO mode prior to starting using throttle workaround.

SPN=697 - AUX PWM Driver 1/Analog Gauge Driver

There were a bunch of previous errors but I don't think any of them were recent, but when I'm on the boat next I'll record them.

 

[muc]

SPN 697 is for the analog temp gauge driver and usually means you don't have analog gauges connected to the system --- very common. Generally will also have 698 + 699 for the oil pressure and trim gauge drivers.

Yes for sure look at the other codes and check if you can see freeze frame info. The engine hours is listed for when the fault happened and we can see how long ago. Faults in this ECM will only set once per key cycle.

 

[websterama]

Here are the previous error codes. Just ran through them.
I don't see where the engine hours are listed (unless that's the "count" value, but I assumed that was number of times it occurred, not when)

Here is the video

Oddly enough, after checking this, while leaving the scan tool connected, I started the engine and it worked like a charm, without having to mess with the throttle to trick it. Very odd. I did notice the "active fault" from not having a gauge connected was also gone.

In case it's useful, I then put the throttle into "throttle only" position and raised the RPMs while looking at the throttle diagnostic screen in the scan tool.

Here is that video

 

[muc]

Here are the previous error codes. Just ran through them.
I don't see where the engine hours are listed (unless that's the "count" value, but I assumed that was number of times it occurred, not when)

Here is the video

Oddly enough, after checking this, while leaving the scan tool connected, I started the engine and it worked like a charm, without having to mess with the throttle to trick it. Very odd. I did notice the "active fault" from not having a gauge connected was also gone.

In case it's useful, I then put the throttle into "throttle only" position and raised the RPMs while looking at the throttle diagnostic screen in the scan tool.

Here is that video

Wow, level 2 overheats. That would have forced the engine down to idle. Is it possible this current problem started after these overheats?

I don't see any freeze frame data. Maybe techmate calls it history? Anybody else who has used techmate pro know how to view freeze frame in a fault? I've seen people on this forum recommending this tool so I would have to believe it's got to be capable of displaying this data. Maybe this is an older tool?

Do the Throttle monitor KOEO. When in that screen push the view button and see if the tool will show 5 lines at a time on the screen. We want to see when the IVS changes out of idle state and back in as you the move the throttle lever through it's full range.

And PLEASE set the techmate down on a seat or tape it to the dash so it's not moving around and try to hold your phone steady. Got a head ache trying to watch the videos.

 

[websterama]

Wow, level 2 overheats. That would have forced the engine down to idle. Is it possible this current problem started after these overheats?

I don't see any freeze frame data. Maybe techmate calls it history? Anybody else who has used techmate pro know how to view freeze frame in a fault? I've seen people on this forum recommending this tool so I would have to believe it's got to be capable of displaying this data. Maybe this is an older tool?

Do the Throttle monitor KOEO. When in that screen push the view button and see if the tool will show 5 lines at a time on the screen. We want to see when the IVS changes out of idle state and back in as you the move the throttle lever through it's full range.

And PLEASE set the techmate down on a seat or tape it to the dash so it's not moving around and try to hold your phone steady. Got a head ache trying to watch the videos.

So I don't think there have been any overheats during the time I've been involved with this boat. Certainly not during my sea trial or initial launch and based on engine hours when I initially tested/purchased the boat, it hadn't been used by anyone else.

I looked into finding more freeze frame/history and according to the Techmate manual, that's available on MerCruiser PCM 555 but not the Volvo Penta EGC (at least that's what it looks like in the manual). I certainly didn't get an option to show that in the fault section of the tool and I poked around every nook and cranny of it. And yes it has the latest 3.0 software on it.

Anyway, went out to the boat this AM to do the throttle diagnostic you suggested, with KOEO. Switched the display to 5 line mode and tried to keep the unit stable

This is video showing the throttle going from center to forward and back twice. Looks like the Idle Valve Switch sits at 5.0 when it's it shows IVS state as Idle and then that goes to 0 as the IVS switches to "off idle".

I took some other videos showing the first 5 lines, but that scrolls the IVS field off the screen so I assume you were looking for this one.

 

[muc]

Thanks for the IVS recording -- much easier to watch -- thought I might have seen something in the first scan you posted. IVS looks good. But when I took a second look at the first scan, I noticed that the engine wasn't up to operating temp. That can change many things. Might want to rerun the scan when engine is fully warmed up.

The level 2 overheat concerns me. Without freeze frame data, all we know is the coolant was over 205° for at least 30 seconds and manifold over 245°. No idea how much over. When I see this much overheat (and don't know exactly how hot it got) with an intermittent symptom (which is what you have) I find to best to do a careful visual inspection of the wire harness. I suggest you do this, paying close attention to anywhere the harness is near or touching the engine. This will most likely require you to unbolt/cut tie wraps that hold the harness is place. The places you want to inspect the closest will be the places that are the hardest to see. I use a bore scope but you might be able to get a good view with a cell phone camera if you can get a clear picture at close distances. Take many pictures before you start taking anything apart, this harness MUST go back to it's proper location.

 

[websterama]

Thanks for the IVS recording -- much easier to watch -- thought I might have seen something in the first scan you posted. IVS looks good. But when I took a second look at the first scan, I noticed that the engine wasn't up to operating temp. That can change many things. Might want to rerun the scan when engine is fully warmed up.

The level 2 overheat concerns me. Without freeze frame data, all we know is the coolant was over 205° for at least 30 seconds and manifold over 245°. No idea how much over. When I see this much overheat (and don't know exactly how hot it got) with an intermittent symptom (which is what you have) I find to best to do a careful visual inspection of the wire harness. I suggest you do this, paying close attention to anywhere the harness is near or touching the engine. This will most likely require you to unbolt/cut tie wraps that hold the harness is place. The places you want to inspect the closest will be the places that are the hardest to see. I use a bore scope but you might be able to get a good view with a cell phone camera if you can get a clear picture at close distances. Take many pictures before you start taking anything apart, this harness MUST go back to it's proper location.

Thanks for the suggestion. By wiring harness I'm assuming you mean the full network of wires that run between the fuse/relay box, ECM, and all the assorted sensors around various parts of the block? Specifically, tracing it and looking for any place it might have touched a hot manifold and melted or otherwise gotten damaged?

I'll do that for sure next time i'm on boat!

 

[muc]

Thanks for the suggestion. By wiring harness I'm assuming you mean the full network of wires that run between the fuse/relay box, ECM, and all the assorted sensors around various parts of the block? Specifically, tracing it and looking for any place it might have touched a hot manifold and melted or otherwise gotten damaged?

I'll do that for sure next time i'm on boat!

Yes