2000 - 225 Evinrude Fitch EMM Question

[BS2024]

Current problem - motor starts right up and purs like a kitten. She runs great for about 20 minutes and then will shut down. All three lights on dash are on “three finger salute” and she won’t start back up for sometimes a half hour or longer. When she does she purs like a kitten again for about 10 minutes and shuts down. It’s pretty obvious that it’s the EMM overheating based off of all of my research. I’ve pulled all the hoses and nothing is clogged. I’ve even pulled the discharge tube after the vapor separator canister to ensure water is pumping through and it is. When you follow the hoses through the EMM, the main water supply going through the EMM is coming from the top of the engine block which seems weird to me because that water is being heated up before it even goes through the EMM. I was thinking about bypassing the original EMM water supply and installing a separate pump that will pull nice cool lake water to run through the EMM. Any thoughts on this idea? I’ve been thinking about sending it out to get reflashed and updated, but worried that even if I do it’s still going to get really warm because of where the water supply is coming from and possibly keep having this issue. Thanks for any input.

 

[racerone]

Replaced the water pump impeller ?

 

[BS2024]

Replaced the water pump impeller ?

Sure did, was hoping that was the issue. I’m getting a really strong stream out of the tale tale so I don’t thinks it’s an impeller issue. I might try to throw in a quick video just so everyone can see the pressure going through the EMM. Just checked both thermostats as well and they both open any 138 degrees.

 

[Crosbyman]

it is best to not assume to much get EV diagnostics and read the fault codes then attack the problem(s)

the LED self test is no indication other than the tach is working Do you get LEDs when it shuts down ??and won't start .

if no LEDs come on and it dies it may be just a fuel flow problem from tank pick-up to high pressure pump filter keeping fuel from reaching injector pressure specs.

If no LEDs come on it is not likely to be a EMM caused shut-down. EMM reacts only to sensor information not physical things like filters, fuel flow issues, stuck HPP etc....

check your VST top vent ..... On ETECs some have been known to jam and cause an air lock in the vst keeping fuel out. careful with non-repairable barbs $$$$ !!!

Evinrude Diagnostics Version 5 A Guide To Getting Started

EVINRUDE DIAGNOSTICS VERSION 5 A GUIDE TO GETTING STARTED September 2021 INTRODUCTION This guide is primarily intended to help Evinrude E-TEC owners. The words...

docs.google.com

The Evinrude Diagnostics Program communicates with the Engine Control Unit (ECU) of Evinrude Fitch, D.I. back to 1997 and the Engine Management Module (EMM) of all Evinrude E-TEC G1 (Legacy) engines and is used for retrieving engine diagnostic information, setting engine operating parameters, performing engine maintenance and obtaining engine history reports.

 

[Crosbyman]

the 2000 + manual doesn't cover your 225 from year 2000 but may provide good info to help out
just go down this list and download the 2000 + ETC FICHT manual

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-pyBmXzRaZ16y9sJ1QkSfjnBGwA-HzsB

 

[Faztbullet]

The "3 finger salute " is a internal EMM problem, need to send off for repair

 

[Crosbyman]

interesting... something new ! found some write ups on THEHULLTRUTH.COM site
seems yes .... bad EMM will do it

https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/996809-evinrude-ficht-intermittent-no-start-solved-printerfriendly.html

Who can do ECU/EMM Electronics Testing/Repair. DFI Still in business?

Have a 1999 225 HP Evinrude Ficht outboard (model E225FPXEES) with low hours (310 hrs). Had a sudden intermittent problem that randomly manifested with console alarms going off with 3 rapidly flashing LEDs. Now its staying that way. No fuel bulb pressure even after manually pumping primer. Unit...

forums.iboats.com

 

[BS2024]

the 2000 + manual doesn't cover your 225 from year 2000 but may provide good info to help out
just go down this list and download the 2000 + ETC FICHT manual

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-pyBmXzRaZ16y9sJ1QkSfjnBGwA-HzsB

Sorry about that…apparently it’s a 2001. Model number is E225FPLSIF. Having a heck of a time finding the correct manual

 

[BS2024]

interesting... something new ! found some write ups on THEHULLTRUTH.COM site
seems yes .... bad EMM will do it

https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/996809-evinrude-ficht-intermittent-no-start-solved-printerfriendly.html

Who can do ECU/EMM Electronics Testing/Repair. DFI Still in business?

Have a 1999 225 HP Evinrude Ficht outboard (model E225FPXEES) with low hours (310 hrs). Had a sudden intermittent problem that randomly manifested with console alarms going off with 3 rapidly flashing LEDs. Now its staying that way. No fuel bulb pressure even after manually pumping primer. Unit...

forums.iboats.com

That’s a very interesting read,and I hope to dive into that a little bit closer today and see if my relays are also acting up. Thanks for passing that on, much appreciated.

 

[BS2024]

The "3 finger salute " is a internal EMM problem, need to send off for repair

Unfortunately your probably right but I’m trying not to “B.O.A.T” if I don’t absolutely have to.

 

[BS2024]

Quick update…yesterday I made up a temporary connector to run garden hose water directly through the EMM while the engine was running. After running for about 10 minutes I shut down the engine…went to restart it immediately and went back to all 3 lights on with “no crank.” Checked the EMM and she was nice and cool still because of the hose water, so I’m starting to think it might not be the EMM. Waited about 15 minutes and she fired right back up again. Now I’m going to dive in a little more to my relays to see if they are over heating and part of the issue..

 

[Crosbyman]

Faztzbullet with his experience is most likely correct but your test with the extra cooling is interesting.

On a newer version ETEC EMM the thing uses power rectified from the stator and will run fine tiill shut down but if the 10amp fuse is blow it will not fire up til it gets + from purple on the key.

in your situation heat build-up seems to be the cause but can it be on any other component ? If you suspect any single component like PDP, relays etc... you could always try a qwick cool down with refrigerant spray to see if you can shorten the delay before the 3 finger salute goes away by itself.

As per one case try tapping around the PDP panel. the 3 LED salute seems to be poorly doumented so anything goes. Good luck ! btw does T&T fail during the blinking period ?

 

[BS2024]

Faztzbullet with his experience is most likely correct but your test with the extra cooling is interesting.

On a newer version ETEC EMM the thing uses power rectified from the stator and will run fine tiill shut down but if the 10amp fuse is blow it will not fire up til it gets + from purple on the key.

in your situation heat build-up seems to be the cause but can it be on any other component ? If you suspect any single component like PDP, relays etc... you could always try a qwick cool down with refrigerant spray to see if you can shorten the delay before the 3 finger salute goes away by itself.

As per one case try tapping around the PDP panel. the 3 LED salute seems to be poorly doumented so anything goes. Good luck ! btw does T&T fail during the blinking period ?

I’m sorry I’m not sure what the T&T is that you’re referring to. First boat owner here…lol

 

[BS2024]

Update: So I checked the water pump again just to be 100% sure it not the issue…it’s good. I next went to pulling both thermostats to let it run for 10 minutes just to see how the engine responded. Took temps on the heads near the spark plugs and they stayed right around 115, whereas they were closer to 140- when I had the thermostats in. I thought for sure this would let me know if it was a cooling issue or not Crossed my fingers
after 10 minutes and shut her off…..turned the key back to the on position and low and behold the old “3 finger salute”. Now I was really stumped because the engine was still fairly cool…no way it was a high temp alarm or sensor causing this…starting looking around at the relays and found that one of them that’s a 70amp was making a ticking noise every 15 seconds or so and this is when there is no key in the ignition. Took a temp reading of it and it was 207 after running the engine for 10 minutes….thats hot. Put in a double sealed bag of ice for 5 minutes and put it back in…she fired right up. I just ordered a new relay and should hopefully have it in a few days. I’m really starting to think that my individual issues is going to have more to do with this relay being bad than anything else. Just letting ya know what I’m finding as I go.

 

[Crosbyman]

good to know....cheaper than a EMM repair for certain... hope it works out keep us posted.

Relays can sometimes be invoked for short durations and their coil windings never have a chance to " heat up" . Not familiar with yours but.... if it is kept energized for reasons beyond normal duties the coil can heat up.

HOT means WATTS ... if winding resistance is to low or became to low for some reason coil amperage will rise in the coil x volts and watts (Power) will shoot up. P=VxI

So the question to answer is...

.Does that realy need to be energized long periods and if so does it just become hot and runs that way or is it getting hot beyond specs ?

If I have a chance I,ll dig up the 2001 diagram andd wording in the manual to find out....unless someone knows already !


btw T&T means tilt and trim function ... for instance in some cases on an ETEC son of FICHT.. if the 10 amp fuse is blown neither EMM will fire up or the T&T work because the FUSED power is also sent to the T&T relays and with no power to drive relays no B+ amps can be transferred down to the T&T motor to raise or lower the engine.

 

[BS2024]

good to know....cheaper than a EMM repair for certain... hope it works out keep us posted.

Relays can sometimes be invoked for short durations and their coil windings never have a chance to " heat up" . Not familiar with yours but.... if it is kept energized for reasons beyond normal duties the coil can heat up.

HOT means WATTS ... if winding resistance is to low or became to low for some reason coil amperage will rise in the coil x volts and watts (Power) will shoot up. P=VxI

So the question to answer is...

.Does that realy need to be energized long periods and if so does it just become hot and runs that way or is it getting hot beyond specs ?

If I have a chance I,ll dig up the 2001 diagram andd wording in the manual to find out....unless someone knows already !


btw T&T means tilt and trim function ... for instance in some cases on an ETEC son of FICHT.. if the 10 amp fuse is blown neither EMM will fire up or the T&T work because the FUSED power is also sent to the T&T relays and with no power to drive relays no B+ amps can be transferred down to the T&T motor to raise or lower the engine.

good to know....cheaper than a EMM repair for certain... hope it works out keep us posted.

Relays can sometimes be invoked for short durations and their coil windings never have a chance to " heat up" . Not familiar with yours but.... if it is kept energized for reasons beyond normal duties the coil can heat up.

HOT means WATTS ... if winding resistance is to low or became to low for some reason coil amperage will rise in the coil x volts and watts (Power) will shoot up. P=VxI

So the question to answer is...

.Does that realy need to be energized long periods and if so does it just become hot and runs that way or is it getting hot beyond specs ?

If I have a chance I,ll dig up the 2001 diagram andd wording in the manual to find out....unless someone knows already !


btw T&T means tilt and trim function ... for instance in some cases on an ETEC son of FICHT.. if the 10 amp fuse is blown neither EMM will fire up or the T&T work because the FUSED power is also sent to the T&T relays and with no power to drive relays no B+ amps can be transferred down to the T&T motor to raise or lower the engine.

Ahhhhh….that is very interesting regarding the trim and tilt. So I’ve noticed the last 3 or 4 times I’ve taken her on the water that the trim and tilt are not working on the main throttle selector thumb switch. When she is just sitting there though with no key in the ignition and not warmed up it will trim and tilt just fine, but once she is started the little thumb switch hasn’t been working…that makes sense now. I’ve also ordered a new T&T relay which is actually right next to the 70 Amp that is acting up…after I replace both I’ll let you know what comes of it. Ive tried finding an electrical diagram but cant find anything. Thanks for all your input on this…always eager to learn from the experienced guys. The model of the engine is E225FPLSIF if that helps any.

 

[Crosbyman]

go to post#5 download the book I told you year 2002-2006 ETEC & FICHT
in the book you will find a wire diagram for the 200-250 as I recall.

find the diagram split in 2 pages 4-50 and 4-51 print and glue them midway and that diagram is probably 98% yours .

btw that 70 amp relay is the main feeder B+ to the EMM and... the PDP panel on the bottom pin D... known to have had colder joint (easy repair it seems with some soldering skills )

some voltage testing may be in order when all this NO START shows up.

it is energized permanently during KEY ON by Purple from the key (usual A post)
it feeds the EMM B+ to run...probably till the stator kicks in and the EMM makes it's own power
presumably like the EMM on an ETEC

the relay gets all it's juice (amps) from the main B+ post on the solenoid where the battery connects.

it becomes real important that the Batt B+ from the battery runs on clean contacts, cable crimps etc... from batt. post to solenoid clean connnections. Clean all ground connections also

keep looking ! above are suggestions and info not meant to send you down rabbit holes.. .

 

[BS2024]

go to post#5 download the book I told you year 2002-2006 ETEC & FICHT
in the book you will find a wire diagram for the 200-250 as I recall.

find the diagram split in 2 pages 4-50 and 4-51 print and glue them midway and that diagram is probably 98% yours .

btw that 70 amp relay is the main feeder B+ to the EMM and... the PDP panel on the bottom pin D... known to have had colder joint (easy repair it seems with some soldering skills )

some voltage testing may be in order when all this NO START shows up.

it is energized permanently during KEY ON by Purple from the key (usual A post)
it feeds the EMM B+ to run...probably till the stator kicks in and the EMM makes it's own power
presumably like the EMM on an ETEC

the relay gets all it's juice (amps) from the main B+ post on the solenoid where the battery connects.

it becomes real important that the Batt B+ from the battery runs on clean contacts, cable crimps etc... from batt. post to solenoid clean connnections. Clean all ground connections also

keep looking ! above are suggestions and info not meant to send you down rabbit holes.. .

That’s a lot of valuable info…I did download the schematic like you said. One thing that is weird is when I turn the key to the on position and let it sit there for about 10 minutes the 70amp relay starts really warming up…it again will get up to about 200 degrees in about 10 minutes, which then gets me back to the no start issue untill I get it cooled down. So I pulled out the 70Amp relay and put my voltmeter into the harness itself…with the key in the “on position” the low voltage coil 85 and 86 are getting 11.8 volts to close the contact. But here is the weird part…even with the engine off and no key in the ignition when I put the voltmeter on number 30 and 87 in the harness I’m getting 12 volts. I thought that I shouldn’t show any voltage because I thought it was the same line. Does that sound wrong to you as well, or is it somehow getting a ground through the EMM or the PDP and that’s why I’m getting 12 volts? Sorry if that doesn’t make sense…I’m not the greatest at troubleshooting electrical but trying to understand it a little better.

 

[Crosbyman]

it is normal to have B+ present on the relay's main INPUT all all times since it's function is to pass it on to engine components EMM PDP whatever is on the LOAD side of the relay output.

when the key is switched to ON... the relay winding is energized by B+ on purple & pulls up to " outbound distribute" the B+ as it should on the out side of the relay... works just like a main solenoid works when it is given the "momentary" go ahead on the START position of the key.

the main 70 amp relay must be continously energized while key ON (purple) so if you leave the KEY ON............. it is just like running headlamps on a car !


see 4-19 in the book
12-volts is always present at the keyswitch Terminal B. When the switch is turned to start or run, power is applied through the switch to Terminal A (accessory circuit). This is significant as power leaves the switch through Terminal A and the Purple wire and goes both to the PDP (Pin L of the 14-pin connector) AND the 70-amp Main Power Relay. This part of the circuit is where the main power relay is energized thereby closing the relay contacts to supply battery voltage on other red wires to the PDP (Pins N and H of the 14-pin connector) as well as the red wire to the EMM 12-volt

strange it gets that hot I would not have expected that but if it is design intent not much you can do. IF the relay being HOT . is the fundamental cause of your shut-downs that is a different story.

can you confirm the relay model is the proper one and not some 6v relay ?

were a long way from the suspected bad EMM & 3 finger salute and it may still be the problem but if you could somehow keep that relay cool it would be interesting to see if the problem would clear out.

 

[BS2024]

it is normal to have B+ present on the relay's main INPUT all all times since it's function is to pass it on to engine components EMM PDP whatever is on the LOAD side of the relay output.

when the key is switched to ON... the relay winding is energized by B+ on purple & pulls up to " outbound distribute" the B+ as it should on the out side of the relay... works just like a main solenoid works when it is given the "momentary" go ahead on the START position of the key.

the main 70 amp relay must be continously energized while key ON (purple) so if you leave the KEY ON............. it is just like running headlamps on a car !


see 4-19 in the book
12-volts is always present at the keyswitch Terminal B. When the switch is turned to start or run, power is applied through the switch to Terminal A (accessory circuit). This is significant as power leaves the switch through Terminal A and the Purple wire and goes both to the PDP (Pin L of the 14-pin connector) AND the 70-amp Main Power Relay. This part of the circuit is where the main power relay is energized thereby closing the relay contacts to supply battery voltage on other red wires to the PDP (Pins N and H of the 14-pin connector) as well as the red wire to the EMM 12-volt

strange it gets that hot I would not have expected that but if it is design intent not much you can do. IF the relay being HOT . is the fundamental cause of your shut-downs that is a different story.

can you confirm the relay model is the proper one and not some 6v relay ?

were a long way from the suspected bad EMM & 3 finger salute and it may still be the problem but if you could somehow keep that relay cool it would be interesting to see if the problem would clear out.

That makes perfect sense why it’s always activated. Your correct that we are a long way away from the EMM, I have a new relay that should be here in the next day or so. If I swap that out and she still gets hot then I’m assuming it’s gonna be the good old EMM. So I tried another quick test…ran her for 10 minutes in a huge cattle waterer bucket and ensured that the water stayed roughly 70 degrees with a hose letting it constantly overflow.(trying my best to simulate true lake conditions). After 10 minutes I shut her down. She started right back up and I ran her another 10 minutes. This time she went into her 3 finger salute mode…the EMM casing was around 115-118 based off my thermal temp gun. If it’s that warm on the outside maybe the inside of the EMM is getting quite a bit warmer and causing something like that “cold solder joint” that I’ve read about to disconnect. I had a fan setup so right after It wouldn’t start and I got my temps I turned it on to blow on the emm and back of engine. After 10 minutes she fired right up. I’m starting to think more and more that it might be the EMM. Dang…was really hoping I was gonna find something stupidly simple. But I’m learning a lot as I go, so that’s always a plus.