1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

ezmobee,

The rivets may not be a bad idea for the screws that are not grabbing. In the areas where there is a gap, the rivets will not work. I think my best bet is just getting more 5200 in there. What do you think about putting the 5200 in the refrigerator over night to increase the viscosity? That way I can push it into place like playdo, and it won't run out as easily?

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

I am considering replacing my instrument guages. They look fine, however I remember over a year ago at night they had a fog inside the lenses and were almost unreadable. Does anybody know why this happens? They are faria guages. The other problem is that the retaining clips on the backs of many of them are cracked. Does anyone know if I can find replacement retaining clips?

 

[fat fanny]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

K if it was me I woul be closing that gap as tight as possible if not you are most likely looking at water intrusion in the near future! new sets of holes and filling the old with 5200. And as for the gauges never had the fog issue withmy Faria's but I do have the problem with he retainingclips breaking 2 words GORILLA GLUE!!! and if you d get aline on the retainers lt me know via PM.

 

[parrisw]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

ezmobee,

The rivets may not be a bad idea for the screws that are not grabbing. In the areas where there is a gap, the rivets will not work. I think my best bet is just getting more 5200 in there. What do you think about putting the 5200 in the refrigerator over night to increase the viscosity? That way I can push it into place like playdo, and it won't run out as easily?

Can you use a small nut and bolt? How is your rub rail held on?

 

[benjh1028]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Kpiazzisi,

Gread thread - great job. I went with all composites last year (nida bond stringers, coosa decking) and never looked back. Glad to see another person taking advantage of modern materials. I always hear the "properly done plywood will last a lifetime" arguement but for maybe $200 more total cost I have the piece of mind knowing it simply will never rot regardless of conditions.

There is light at the end of the tunnel! Good luck on the home stretch!

Ben

 

[ezmobee]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

What do you think about putting the 5200 in the refrigerator over night to increase the viscosity? That way I can push it into place like playdo, and it won't run out as easily?

Maybe if you have the fast cure stuff. If you have the regular it definitely won't work because that stuff takes ages to dry. It'll warm up and leak all over just like before.

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Ben,

Thanks. There does not seem to be a lot of people interested in the composite idea. If I had to do it again I would avoid Nida Core and go all Coosa. The Coosa doesn't have to be laminated with glass on either side. The 26 Lb blue water series Coosa is strong enough without any fiberglass added and is impervious to water. If I did this again I would go with the Coosa. I can get it for about $200.00 a sheet. I figure 4-5 sheets for a 20 ft boat. It sounds like a lot of money initially, but you have to factor in what you save in fiber glass and resin. Saving hours of labor is also a factor. You could probably get away with bedding Cooda stringers/bulkheads into the hull with PL. If you wanted to tab them in, that could be done with one or two layers of 6 inch biax tape. It's not necessary to glass all the way to the top of the stringers and then cap them. So much labor could be saved! As far as the floor, one layer of CSM and tabbing with the biax tape on the edges, and your done. Who knows maybe there will be another project after this one....lol

 

[Outback Jack]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

kpiazzisi I wish I could have found a supplier here for that product. I am very impressed with how yours turned out. I am on the east coast north of the border and I tried contacting 4-5 companies accross the country just for a resin supply. I never got one answer. I tried to find the product coosa up here , I just quit looking . I have bought all my supplies south of the border for this project . Shipping is killing me I have about 500 bucks in 1500 in supplies. That was shipping it to a friends address in the usa and me driving over and picking it up. I never priced on getting coosa shipped up here after I had my first shipping bill.I just knew it would not be cheap. All I know if I could get it I would have tried it.
I said the other day there are so maney buisness ventures a man could do ,but is the demand out there up here or is it me just needing the product

Jack

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Jack,

I just checked www.compositesone.com and they have locations in northern USA. I think Main was the most northern location. They are a wholesaler that sells to the public. UPS will not ship a 4x8 sheet, so you have to pick it up or pay a lot for it to go my a carrier that does freight. Compositesone has a location in Lake Land Florida, and I live in Sarasota Florida. I am only a one hour drive away, so for me it was easy. I used Nida Core for most of my work and Coosa for the Transom. After using both products I would spend the extra money for the Coosa. The reason being that the Nida Core, has little strength in and of itself. The strength comes from the thickness of the entire laminate and the fiberglass skins on both sides of the material. I put a PIC on Jay's thread showing the raw Nida Core material flimsy like a noodle before lamination, and another PIC with me standing on it, after it was laminated. There are a couple of problems with Nida Core IMO.

First it offers no compression strength. You have to keep in mind that when you are talking about material strength, there are different types of strengths. My floor, done with Nida Core is very "Stiff" meaning that it will not flex. It does not however offer very much in the way of "Compression Strength". If you took a section of my floor and squeezed it in a vice, it would fail very easily under little compression force. If you are looking for the absolute lightest and the most stiff floor, then laminated Nida Core is the answer. The question then becomes weather or not the labor and resin cost involved in doing the extra lamination is worth the weight savings. Coosa Blue Water at 26 Lb density is still 1/3 of the weight as plywood. It has compression strength and stiffness strength. It doesn't match the stiffness of a laminate, but in its raw form it is acceptable for a floor and a transom. If you laminate the Coosa (fiberglas skins on both sides), then you have the best of everything with a little addition weight.

In a lot of respects wood is hard to beat. It offers "stiffness" and the best compression strength. It's compression strength far exceeds even the Coosa. The cost is cheap and it's easy to work with. The down fall as we all know is that it can rot. I think doing the things that Jay and others have done by properly sealing the wood will definitely preserve the wood for years and maybe a lifetime if taken care of properly. The thing you have to ask yourself, is how much resin & fiberglass do I want to buy, how much labor do I want to invest and finally how much heavier I am going to make my boat. I think when you factor in these other aspects the Coosa becomes the best choice.


As far as demand goes, there are so many boats down here in Florida that are very cheap. Part of this is due to the economy and the other is because everyone knows the high heat, humidity, high UV, and salt water, ruin boats in a hurry. Are boating season is a lot longer so a boat down here gets used a lot more in an unfriendly environment. With so many boats available, it's hard to justify expensive repair cost.

Sorry for being so winded here

Take Care Jack

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

I just made a post about composites....hope you like it! Not a big deal, but I call CSM "Continous Strand Mat" instead of "Chopped strand mat".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikYQNSgDVUQ

 

[Outback Jack]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Great video kpiazzisi, lot's of great ideas for my next restore. I am heading down to maine in the am , I go there all the time. Never found that contact when I was looking. I guess I gave up to early. I have been paying close attention to the weight thing. Trying not to add to much . From what I took out of the boat and what I am putting back in I will be a little heavier but built alot better then it was. I never beefed anything up as to products just an extra layer of fiberglass where it should have been rather then just resin.

Thanks for the info

Jack

 

[benjh1028]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Ben,

Thanks. There does not seem to be a lot of people interested in the composite idea. If I had to do it again I would avoid Nida Core and go all Coosa. The Coosa doesn't have to be laminated with glass on either side. The 26 Lb blue water series Coosa is strong enough without any fiberglass added and is impervious to water. If I did this again I would go with the Coosa. I can get it for about $200.00 a sheet. I figure 4-5 sheets for a 20 ft boat. It sounds like a lot of money initially, but you have to factor in what you save in fiber glass and resin. Saving hours of labor is also a factor. You could probably get away with bedding Cooda stringers/bulkheads into the hull with PL. If you wanted to tab them in, that could be done with one or two layers of 6 inch biax tape. It's not necessary to glass all the way to the top of the stringers and then cap them. So much labor could be saved! As far as the floor, one layer of CSM and tabbing with the biax tape on the edges, and your done. Who knows maybe there will be another project after this one....lol

I used the Nida Bond pourable material on the stringers and a Coosa deck. Even though I could probably got away with no laminate, i put a layer of 1708 on the bottom and CSM on top. Still doesn't take nearly the resin that plywood does and very easy to work with.

I'm curious as to how well screws hold in the Nida Core deck? From your video, it looks like a screw would not be able to get enough grab or have sufficient pull strength? I had issues with mounting my seat pedestals on the Coosa and ended up epoxying threaded inserts into the floor. What is your plan or what does the manufacturer recommend for fasteners?

Ben

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Nida recomends putting an allen wrench on a drill bit and boring a section out when you want the screw to go. Then it's filled with epoxy and tapped. Sounds like a major pain. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks for the question.f

KP

 

[jones01m]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

kpiazzisi,
Awesome thread and just watched your video where you discuss the preference to use Coosa for stringers if you were to do it again. Would you glass over the Coosa stringers, or would carbon fiber tempt you? I am seriously considering going this route. thanks

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Jones,

thank you. My car broked down and until I get it fixed, the boat is on hold. I would not glass over the Coosa for the bulkhead or stringers. If you want more strength, just go with a slightly thicker piece of Coosa for a little more $ and a little added weight. When you glass them into the boat, the tabing will cover the bottoms of the Coosa bulkhead/stringers anyway. I would tab with 1708. You need the Chopped strand matt side against the boat hull. The boat hull is a rough uneven substrate. The resin runs into the voids and bridges the gaps. If you don't use 1708 you will have gaps b/t the hull and 1700 (strictly biax no CSM) that are filled with resin only. Worse yet you may have air bubles if the hull is too rough. In the best case scenario with no air bubles, the resin that filled the gaps and pockets is weak at best, even with epoxy resin. With 1708 (biax w/ CSM) the chopped strands mix with the resin on the uneven substrate. 1708 is the perfect solution for tabing in stringers. I would still recomend grinding the boat hull first (as smooth as possible w/o grinding into the hulls fiberglass strands) before the tabing. Knock down the high areas. If the hull still seems really rough, you might want to consider filling divets or pockets with a fillet compound (peanut butter), and then sanding that smooth with your grinder before the tabbing. Another option with a rough hull is to thicken the epoxy a little with cabosil so that it has a better chance of filliing in the imperfections in the rough hull and hopefully avoiding air pockets. It will however make it more difficult to saturate the fiberglass. If you send me some pics of the hull once you are ready, I can advise further.

Take Care
Kevin

 

[jones01m]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

KP,

You nailed it. Thanks for the response. Friday I added my first layer of glass to the hull with epoxy and noticed that it wanted to pull away from the low spots. So saturday I added some epoxy filler to the entire hull and sanded the high spots. I also added some cabosil to the epoxy to lay down a base layer of resin prior to laying glass - it helped. I agree that the answer is CSM first. Any idea where to order stiched CSM that works with epoxy?

Whomever is reading this thread please look at KPs comments. He is right on!!!

I appreciate your feedback KP.

 

[oops!]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

have you got the hull gaps sorted out yet?

1.4 inch is common.......use the rivets....if the rivet hole is too big....seal the hole with 5200 and re drill in a different spot.

after the rail is on......run masking tape bleow the rail.....then run a bead of 5200 under the cap joint. spray water over the bead of 5200 and take a popsicle stick.....and remove the excess 5200......remove the gooky risidual 5200 with newspaper or rag.

nice clean line. no drips.....and sealed.

repete for over the top of the rub rail.

 

[relocyo]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Just read your whole thread, very good info here, and the paint looks awesome! Keep up the good work, I will continue watching... Good luck!

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Thanks guys....I don't know if I would even recomend reading my entire thread...lol. It's been a learning process for me as well and I am in no way an authority on this stuff. Iboats is an awsom furum where you can post an opinion and others will try and be courteous and helpful without challenging eveything you say. It's a great community, trying to do nothing more then to help each other out.

Oops,

I did get the rub rail back on. I went around once more with a bead of 5200. I did exactly what you suggested and drilled new holes where needed and sealed the old ones up. I also put a bead of 5200 on the rigid plastic part of the rail. That stuff is really messy! Once the rigid part of the rail was installed, I started on the soft insert. I followed a suggestion I found he and left the soft vinyl insert in the sun for a couple of hours. It was nice and plyable when I tapped it in with the rubber mallet. I had my daughter line it up with the rigid rail as I tapped it. Once we got it started, it was a piece of cake.

I had some scuff marks in the rail that I sanded lightly with some 120 grit paper. It doesn't look like new, but from 10 feet away you can't tell. At some point I might spend the $100.00 or so for the new vinyl insert. I'll post a pic latter. My car is jacked right now, so no boat work until the car gets fixed per the wife.

Take Care...

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: 1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

Just an update. I am working on the boat again. The risers rusted out while it was sitting in the garage causing rusty water to leak into the back two cylinders. All this in spite of the fact that I ran fresh water through the engine when I took the motor out a couple of years ago. I should have pulled the risers when I took the motor out. I have done a partial rebuild on the motor and I am ready to put it back in the boat. It should not be long now!