1996 Four Winns Sundowner with 5.0 Cobra engine and drive

Lpgc

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The alignment tool is the same for the merc and OMC/Volvo.
Thanks.

I just tried another way of checking the coupler... Just fitted it to the splines inside the boat and turned it. I didn't use any equipment other than my eyes to check it but it seems OK.

I am surprised with how loose it is on the splines though. Usually splined joints are tight but this feels realy loose like there's some play between the male input shaft splines and the female splines in the coupler... Should it be tighter or is this normal? I don't see much wear on either the male or female splines.

The engine had a knock before I removed it but there were no bearing issues with the engine. When I saw the rubber out of true in the coupler I was beginning to think that maybe the knock was due to the coupler... Now I wonder if the knock was due to the loose spline connection and/or the coupler being a little out of true, but I'd expect to see more wear on the splines if the knock were due to play on the splines.
 

Lpgc

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Not a OMC guy but the splines don't look square.

Ahh... Thanks. I see what you mean in the picture. I'll try to make time tomorrow to have another look.

Should they be square? Are worn splines a known problem on boat drives? Should the input shaft be a tight fit in the coupler?
 

alldodge

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All couplers should have sharp square cut teeth. If teeth are getting worn then the coupler might be wearing to much. If it wears enough the coupler can strip just because of many years of time

The alignment tool should slide easy in/out. If it does that then the drive is aligned and/or the coupler is worn. This is why looking at the teeth is important
 

Lou C

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What seems to make couplers last a long time:
Proper alignment
Pulling the drive regularly and using a good grease like OMC/Evinrude Triple Guard on the splines.
My 1988 Cobra still has the original coupler.
 

Lpgc

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Seems new couplers are difficult to get hold of and expensive here. I could pay £400+ and have to wait for shipping from the US but I've just seen this used one on Ebay at £150 which I could have here by Tuesday. What do you think to the teeth on this one?
Ebay coupler.jpg
 

ScottinAZ

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Seems new couplers are difficult to get hold of and expensive here. I could pay £400+ and have to wait for shipping from the US but I've just seen this used one on Ebay at £150 which I could have here by Tuesday. What do you think to the teeth on this one?
View attachment 396402
that coupler looks pretty good to me... wear on the splines can be pretty obvious if you know what to look for (there is usually some step on the drive sides of the spline from the wear)... I would clean yours up as clean as you can get it and then inspect. Couplers usually dont fail from wear, they fail from delamination. Your drive input shaft condition should also be a good indicator of coupler conditon. you would notice it on there as well....

the attached pic isnt of a drive coupler or input shaft, but is indicative of the wear that happens to them. Use as an example when inspecting yours....
 

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Lou C

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I think that delamination would happen from bad alignment, sagging engine mounts, etc but spline wear I think is more so due to people never pulling the drive and greasing the splines. That is a regular maintenance item, that many people ignore. Merc at least put grease fittings on theirs, now if you can reach em is a different story.
 

Lpgc

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I bought the used coupler, should have it in a few days but I won't get time to do much work on the boat until at least Wednesday anyway. Next time I work on the boat I'll probably be checking the new (to me) coupler on the input shaft splines to compare play between my old one and this one. Can't see all the input shaft splines with the leg fitted but I'll check them when I remove the leg to fit the engine.

Good news is the leg didn't drop on the hydraulics so I hope I cured the hydraulics problem just by replacing the leaky O ring where a line enters the pump.

Jetwashed the boat engine bay, should've taken some before and after pics! Still not sparkling but at least it's not caked up in oil/grime now.

I left the raw water pump in the boat over winter, just had a look at it and have concerns about it.. It's a bit stiff to turn, will only turn one way and I can see a rubber O ring in the middle of a shaft where it doesn't seem to be doing anything (pic below). Is the O ring position normal? Does the clearance between the pulley and body look normal? I'm hoping my friend didn't stand on it when he was helping me lift the engine and push the pulley into the body...

20240405_174920.jpg
 

ScottinAZ

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the pump looks "normal" to me. The o-ring acts as a slinger to keep any water that leaks past the seal from accessing the bearings which are in the housing closest to the pulley. As long as you have little to no runout on the pulley, you should be fine. The back section where the hoses connect only houses the impeller and a seal. I would change both. Not that hard to do at all, and just did it on mine....

as a note, CLR or other "bathroom" type calcium, lime and rust remover does wonders for any buildup inside the pump housing.
 

Lou C

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Don't know if you can source it where you are, but the best grease I have found for driveshaft splines is the Evinrude Triple Guard grease, it is sticky and clings on like crazy. When I pull it at the end of the season, there is still grease on them. However, if someone was to run one of these for like 5 years and never pulled it to grease it, I'd imagine that there will be some spline wear.
When you install the drive after re-installing the engine, don't grease those 2 orings, that can cause problems if the grease gets into the groove under the oring, it can make it tough to get the drive on. Use motor oil on the orings, no grease. Grease only on the splines. You can also put some grease on the outer lip of the end of the bellows, that helps it seal against the bearing carrier. On these because there is no gasket between the drive and the transom mount, I'd also put grease on the mating surfaces to keep them from corroding together. Pic says Volvo but it's the same thing as what you have.
Volvo sx pivot housing .jpg
 

Lpgc

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Just a short reply tonight, been out for a.curry with my son and daughter in law for a curry and typing this on my phone.. my fingers are too old and thick for this! Incidentally, small world, my daughter in law is from Louisiana.

@ScottinAZ Thanks that's reassuring. How tight is your pulley to turn by hand? Heh I thought the O ring shouldve been fitted in one of the housings as a water or grease seal. I can feel no runout.

@Lou C Thanks, yes yours looks exactly the same as mine. I'm sure marinas here will stock the triple guard grease, just that sometimes they charge crazy prices. I have the good intention of pulling the engine after running it in just to clean out the sump and maybe paint it, in which case I could use any grease for now and switch to the good stuff next time it goes back in.. but in case that doesn't happen maybe I should put the good grease in now. Also, what grease for the spigot bearing and UJ joints? Today I bought a 3 piece gasket set comprising the odd.shaped gasket for the water intake and 2 O rings but later I was wondering if I bought the correct set... The water intake gasket looked the correct odd shape but I was still wondering where the 2 O rings go? I will remember to put grease in the mating faces you advised, thanks.

I still haven't opened the fill or drain plug on the leg, embarrassingly I don't have a screwdriver that fits! I'll buy a screwdriver, but then what fluid goes in the leg? Does the top plug have a dipstick?

So much for my short reply, fingers and eyes aching now hehe.
 

ScottinAZ

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my pulley isnt that tight, but if there is a bit of crud built up in the pump, it will stop the impeller from turning. May want to pop the rear cover off (3 bolts) and remove the impeller... that will tell the tale for the bearings.

IIRC, your drive is a late Cobra with the humpbacked drive. If that is the case, there is no paper gasket needed between the gimbal housing and the lower unit. Just an o-ring type seal around the water intake area. The top plug on these drives is an oil dipstick as well. Usually the two o-rings replace the ones on the input shaft where it interfaces with the gimbal bearing.

I pull my drive yearly, and I will admit to just using a marine type grease on the splines and in the u-joints and gimbal bearing. I have it on hand, so thats what I used...... for better or worse, I dont see any wear when pulling the drive, but I only put on about 20 hours a year or so.....I also just use a generic gear oil in the appropriate weight in the drive..... again, it gets changed yearly, and looks nearly new when dropping it.
 

Horigan

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For the fluid use Volvo 75W90 oil. Get the biggest flathead screw driver you can find and ensure the slot on the plug is really clean and deep. Ensure the screwdriver is well seated before torquing on it. You don't want it to slip. You'll need three O-rings; drain plug, overfill plug under the shift cover, and dipstick (larger O-ring). Add fluid from the bottom at the drain plug until it comes out the overflow port.
 

Lpgc

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@ScottinAZ If I remove the pump backplate will I need a new gasket? Can the bearing housing be dismantled/greased? I think we established my setup labelled OMC Cobra is the crossover between OMC Cobra and Volvo SX units... So far everything I've seen points to the drive being a Volvo SX except for the hydraulic rams which have the top cover like the Cobra? The drive plate looks the same as the one @Lou C pictured above.

@Lou C I bought some Evinrude/Johnson Triple Guard grease today, a tube for the grease gun and a squeegy tube, they cost around £13 each (in contrast 'normal' grease costs around £5 a go). I'll take your advice regards using it on the splines and drive mating areas where you said. How many gaskets fit between the leg and the drive plate on your drive? I only remember there being the one odd shaped water gasket on mine but I could be wrong.

What grease for the gimble bearing and UJ joints (all Evinrude Tripple stuff or normal grease for most stuff except the splines)?

@Horigan Is the Volvo 75W90 special marine stuff or could I just put any 75/90 in? I remember my dad used Quicksilver drive oil in his outboards and believed it was special stuff that would still lubricate properly if a little water got past seals into the gearbox.

I don't remember if I already said I bought an alignment tool, waiting for it to arrive. I know I said I bought a replacement second hand coupler. If I find a problem with the SX input shaft splines I understand I can buy a new input shaft and fit it to my existing forward CV joint. Would this one fit? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322721234200

Thinking ahead to when I get to use the boat, I'll want a spare wheel for the trailer. I also have questions about the wheel bearings, they seem an unusual EZ lube design, I'll be checking the bearings condition for wear/play/noise but is there anything I should know about the unusual wheel bearings? And what grease is good for them if I regularly launch the boat in saltwater (can/should I use the Evinrude Tripple stuff in them)? I've posted pictures showing the trailer plate and a wheel below. Sourcing a tyre won't be a problem but I'm not sure about the wheel, I think I've found a wheel from an Ebay seller in Northern Ireland... looks the same as my trailer wheels and seems to be all the correct measurements (5 stud, 4.5" bolts spacing) but I haven't removed a wheel to check wheel bolt hole diameters or offset yet https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324484136946

20240406_170313.jpg

20240406_172726.jpg

One other thing regards the trailer tyres... They are 175/80/13D. I now understand that the D means they're not radial. I was worried that the tyres seem to bulge in the middle of the tread, kind of like the tread is convexed (where-as radials would be more flat across the tread), do 'D' tyre treads normally convex?
 
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ScottinAZ

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if you are careful, you may be able to save the gasket. A full impeller kit for my pump with the gaskets was like $30 on Ebay, and if its been a while since the impeller has been changed, that isnt a bad idea to do.... mine hadnt run since 2017, and was not only deformed, but starting to crack at the root of the impeller blades. The seal at the front of the housing (opposite where the hoses connect) was not included in the kit, and was another $10....

what you have on the trailer wheels is what we refer to here on this side of the pond as "bearing buddies"... you pack your wheel bearings as normal (use a marine rated wheel bearing grease) and then shoot a few squirts of the same grease into the bearing buddy with a grease gun using the nipple, at least until the front cap moves a bit (its under spring tension). this helps to keep the water out of the bearings... dont over fill them to where grease is coming out the back, or to where the cap is hard against the stops... this defeats the purpose and can let water in....

as for the wheel, again, over here, the trailer wheels are pretty universal for bolt pattern, you just match the size of the rim/tire with what you have. I dont know the situation over there though.
 

Lpgc

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Thanks @ScottinAZ

There are no dust caps on the trailer wheel bearings, is that how the bearing buddies are supposed to be? Is there another grease nipple (that I haven't noticed) besides the bearing buddy nipple? Does packing the bearing buddy also pack the bearing? Would the Evinrude Tripple grease be well suited?

On the raw water pump - I'd bet it's never been serviced so it would be a good idea to change the impellor. Do you know the impellor part number? Was the same raw water pump used on other setups? Can the front uit bearings be lubed / serviced?

Sorry for firing off so my questions! After you explained the O ring is a slinger and that the pumps are generally a bit stiff to turn I don't think there'll be a problem with this pump but still (and like you say) it will be a good idea to at least take a look inside and clean out any build-up etc.

Another few general questions... The 2 barrel carb has automatic choke. What controls the choke? I left the carb sat in the boat all winter, maybe I should take the opportunity (before I refit it) to rebuild the carb, in which case I'd need at least a gaskets kit. I should've checked again but I think it's a 2 barrel Holley... Are there any common problems with them? One of my problems is that few of the dash gauges seemed to work when I used the boat last summer... The oil pressure gauge and temp gauge didn't seem to work. But I might've found the problem regards the oil pressure gauge, the sender was broke when I tested it with a multimeter but I've since fitted a new sender (and used it to test oil pressure when I run the oil pump using a drill - all good). I'm hoping the new oil pressure sender will fix the dash oil pressure gauge but I don't know if the the temp gauge didn't seem to work because the engine stayed too cold for temp to register on the dash gauge (stuck open thermostat) or because the temp sender was broke, or because the dash gauge was broke. I'll be investigating these points (and removing a resistive temp sender to check it's resistance changes in a pan of hot water) but is there a separate temp switch/sender on the engine that controls when the carb choke flaps are closed? The inlet manifold does seem to have 2 temp sensors (or rather a resistive sender, plus another one which I think is a temp switch), I don't remember if electrical connections ran from the carb to the 'temp switch' but I might be able to interpret that info from pics I took before I removed the engine.
 
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ScottinAZ

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bearing buddies will often have a rubber cover over the outside of the cap. these are the first things lost, and usually never replaced. None of mine currently have them.......

shooting some grease through the nipple does pack the bearings to an extent, but not nearly as well as doing it manually. it has to force through the front bearing, through the cavity between and then the old grease from the front goes through the rear bearing, and eventually out past the seal (not desireable). I use them to just keep a bit of "pressure" on the grease to keep the cold water of the lake from getting past the hot seals from driving. I repack manually yearly/every 2 years depending on mileage. I would use a specific marine wheel bearing grease. I dont know how well the triple lube does with the speeds and temperatures of wheel bearings. Your parts house should have this. Ours do, and is blue in color, and rated for water and wheel bearings. I use this also in my u-joints and gimbal bearing... its already in my grease gun.....

Your pump looks suspiciously like mine, I used a Sierra 18-3277 kit in mine, the front seal was a Volvo P/N 827247. to deal with the bearings will require a press, and from what I can see, they are "permanently sealed" bearings..... If you are unsure when/if your pump has been serviced, I would do it. Its cheap insurance, especially with a fresh engine going in.

if you have a 2bbl Holley, I would rebuild it. Again, fresh engine, why not.... carb kit was cheap for mine (also a 2bbl Holley) I used a cheap generic kit with a new accellerator pump diaphragm, gaskets, and power valve.... Earlier Holleys would puke the power valve if the engine backfired, but newer ones have a protection system installed. I am unsure if ours have that or not.... An extra power valve isnt a bad thing to have, same with bowl and metering block gaskets. If yours has never been serviced you are in for a treat getting the old gaskets off..... mine were stuck like $hit on velcro, and had to be soaked for a couple of days to get them off..... Next time I will use the Holley rubber gaskets, and smear a little vaseline on them so they come off.....

the choke is/should be an electrically heated bimetallic spring.... as long as it has 12v, and is properly adjusted, it does its own thing with no outside assistance.

I will say, the 2bbl Holley on my Four Winns has been a JOY to rebuild and tune compared to the Rochester 2GC on my other boat..... fewer parts, easy to adjust and tune.... and it runs a lot better as a result....
 
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Lpgc

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Great info, thanks @ScottinAZ

Only going on memory but I seem to remember there is wiring to some sort of solenoid attached to the choke flaps on my carb... Assuming I'm right and they control the choke, should the choke be controlled by some temp switch in the manifold?

Also (sigh, sorry another question...) what thermostat? I want to be sure it gets up to the proper temperature regardless of whether or not the dash gauges work properly.
 
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