1982 150 poppet valve questions

ncfish1

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

The Quicksilver # is 27-78690 for the gaskets.
 

ronnieboy

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

My 1988 mariner mag II has same basic water hoses and routes water in same manner, but, poppet has hole in block where your brass plug was. seems to me that motor would get hot above over 3000 rpm cause adequate water flow is not present, ? i will be glad to hear what fixes it , as i 'm sure you will too , hahahh good luck ron
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

ronnieboy, that is a great question. I can't explain why, but I have not experienced any overheating (at least knowingly). Typically, the engine is running for the duration when I have the boat on the water. This is an equal mix of idling, trolling and on plane runs (at anywhere from 3500 rpm to wot).

I have looked closesly at the poppet assembly cavity and I don't see any hole other than where the poppet enters.

Does your relief valve cover look the same as mine (shown above)?
 

ronnieboy

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

the poppet cover is the same, except without the plug, my block also has a hole in in under the same plug . this is a dump to the exaust close to the pee hole. i think it just does away with the rubber hose. good luck ron
 

gss036

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Ron, are you saying that you have 2 holes under the poppet cover? ( i think it just does away with the rubber hose. good luck ron ) What rubber hose are you talking about doing/does away with?
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

So while I wait for relief valve cover gaskets, fittings and for penetrating oil to work on the top plug, I started to tackle the little to no tell-tale stream.

Today, I performed the recommended test of running the engine with the thermostats covers and thermostats removed. I started up the engine on muffs and within 10 seconds or so, water started to pour out of the thermostat holes on each side. As expected above, the port side is stronger than the starboard side. The visual is similar to the picture found the Capt. Crunch's thread on V6 150 peeing problem.

I will start to check the hoses between the thermostats, down to the t and the port side block connection to the the tell-tale exit.

I am guessing that since the t-stats are new and thinking that it would take a while for the engine to warm up....actually, I don't know what to guess.

As I was typing this, I started to think that the tell-tale had two sources; the two t-stat exits and the hose coming from the very bottom of the block. Now that I think about it, I would guess that the t-stat exit flow is split between the tell-tale and the line leading to the bottom of the block (which must connect to the exhaust area). Does this sound right? If yes, then I am guessing I wouldn't see much if any tell-tale stream until the engine warms up.
 

gss036

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Dan, I was going to tell you to goover to the Marine Doctor Forum, but see that you have already been there, w/o any luck. After looking at the water flow chart that Capt Crunch posted and looking at the 89 & newer, there is definately a different flow pattern. You guys definately have more patience that I do. At this point, I think figuring out the year of the block is critical to detrmine the water flow for you engines. My manual is specific for certian serial numbers and models 135 to 200 hp. They must have made some drastic changes about that time. I have never worked on anything but 89 and up so I am just guessing at this point. Sorry I cannot be of more help and maybe added to the confusion.
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Hi Gary,

I've already made up my mind to repower this boat in the spring and, you are right, I'm not killing myself to get this done. My boating season is nearing the end and I'm enjoying tinkering around.

I have looked all over the block for any indication of serial number or year. Haven't found anything yet. If there is anything, it is under another component.

I'm starting to think there are several correct ways to set things up.

Dan
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

I think I know what is going on. This all started when I started to look into why my tell-tale wasn't telling any tale. That was issue number 1. Issue number two was something didn't look right about my relief valve assembly. That was problem number 2.

Problem #1: I just had a revelation. Between this thread and the other similar thread, I feel that my t-stats are correctly setup and connected to the tell-tale and bottom exhaust plate. Since the source of my tell-tale is the t-stat discharge, I am now thinking that my t-stats are not opening (they are new and are behaving no different than the old ones - I'll get to that in a minute). Tomorrow, I will remove the t-stats from the t-stat housing, hook everything back up and see how the tell-tale behaves. This is going to be a lot easier than trying to get the hoses off and making sure all of the hoses are clear (I suspect they are). I am betting that I will see a nice stream of water out of the tell-tale.

At what temp should the t-stats open? I have a temp gauge in my boat and never see it get over approx 120. I have been thinking that the gauge was not accurate. However if it is, it may never get hot enough to open the t-stats. What are your thoughts on this?

If you recall, I am not aware of my engine overheating. The block has been warm, but never hot.

What do you think about my theory?

Problem #2: On monday, I will pick up the fitting that should be in place of the place of the plug on my relief valve cover. I am now thinking that this is a discharge. Pressure builds in the block, pushes open the poppet, water gets past it and into the area under the relief valve cover. In theory, water would then exit the relief valve cover discharge into a connected hose and the go somewhere. I would think it needs to get into the exhaust plate.

I may be very wrong on this (and maybe I misunderstood how the operation of this was described above), but from looking at the relief valve assembly, I don't see how water could enter the relief valve cover area, push on the poppet and enter whatever chamber is on the other side of the poppet. I don't see how water could push the poppet open from inside the relief valve cover area. It simply doesn't move that way.

Thoughts?
 

Capt. Crunch

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

1) Wash thermostat(s) with clean water.

2) Suspend the thermostat(s) and a thermometer in a container of water that can be heated.

3) Heat the water and note the temperature at which thermostat(s) starts to open. It should be approximately 140-145 degrees fahrenheit.

That is how my manual describes testing them. Although I'm in the same position as you are (trying to figure all this out), I see everything the way you describe it with the components you mention.

BTW- what are you using as a fitting for the top of the block? A factory part or something else?

Dennis
 

ncfish1

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Hi Dan;

The poppet operates on pressure exerted from the impeller. The pressure exerted from higher rpm's on the impeller has an affect on the water flow to and through the water passages. As water pumps through the heads, pressure is exerted on the t'stats while at the same time a separate passage to the top of the power head (to the plug at the top). If this plug were removed and connected to a hose that allowed water to flow freely, then overall pump pressure would be exiting the hose rather than through the t'stats (path of least resistance).

If you connected the hose to something like the relief valve, then what excess pressure in the water loop that couldn't be releast by the t'stats would be exerted on the relief valve. It is what it says it is.

Inside the relief valve is a diaphragm and water deflector that is activated internally by the pressure from the hose you've connected via a small channel between the relief cover and plate. You will notice a small vent hole on the relief cover that indicates air will be vented at some point. What this tells you, is the diaphragm is pushing outward (towards the vent), therefore water is pushing the water deflector out, relieving spring pressure and allowing water to flow through the cannel into the power head. The greater the water pressure, the further the poppet opens. At idle, the t'stats are adequate to relieve what pressure the impeller is producing.

There is also a neutral channel that relieves "some pressure" that ties back to the internal outlet for the poppet. All of this excess pressure (esp. created at rpm's greater than idle speed) exists out the exhaust chamber and benefits the operation by creating a wall of water within the chamber to eliminate steam pockets and reduce exhaust noise.

The t'stat circuits and the relief valve circuit serve separate functions and are in no way interconnected except how they are fed; et, the impeller.

For the t'stats, the temperature rating should be 143 degrees. This is the temp that makes them full open. They will still begin opening as lesser temperatures (120 as mentioned). The heat generated through the heads dictates their throttle position. You will have water from the tale-tale shortly after startup, as meager as it may be to start with. As the heads heat up from friction, this in turn heats the water and throttles the t'stat.

Remember that there are other passages that are allowing water to circulate (one being the pressure relief) even at low rpm's. By observing your temp. gauge and the tale-tale flow, should should be able to determine when the t'stats are at full throttle. You will have a less strong tale-tale stream at 120 degrees than you will at 143, however, any stream (strong or not) tells you that some water is flowing through the heads. How cool the heads are is projected through your temp. gauge, the only dependency you have while operating.

Good luck.

Capt. Mike
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Thanks for the explanation Capt.

I did some more experimenting today. While I'm waiting for parts, I rigged up a simple connection between the relief valve discharge and the plug at the top of the block. A couple of brass fittings for plastic tubing and a short length of 1/4" I.D. clear plastic tubing did the trick.

The first test. Relief valve discharge is connected to the top of the block and I removed the starboard t-stat from the t-stat housing. The main thing I wanted to test was to see if the lines from t-stat were clear enough for a good flow. Started up the engine and got good results. A good strong pee. With the clear tubing between the relief valve discharge and the top of the block, I also saw some water moving through the tubing.

976IMG_2208.JPG


Here is the results of the follow on test with the starboard t-stat reinstalled. Pee is now nothing but a trickle. PS I can't believe how rusty the engine looks in the pictures. It doesn't seem to look that horrible in person.

976IMG_2210.JPG


I wonder if there is something incorrect about my t-stat installation? It simply appears that very little to nothing is getting past them at least when the engine is cold.
 

ncfish1

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Dennis; If the first picture indicates the tale-tale flow that you are getting with the t'stats installed, then that's good. Remember, the t'stats are not open at startup and won't start opening until they begin sensing some heat. In otherwords, the tale-tale is showing what the t'stats are allowing to flow.

My Mercury at startup has a low tale-tale stream and continues to be so until the engine temp rises. With ears on the lower unit, you may never get above 128 degrees at idle. The correct t'stats are rated at 143 degree full open.

When on the water however, once I run the rpm's up and the temp gauge starts rising, then I see a full stream. The t'stats are simply telling you (via the tale-tale) that water is flowing through the power head (no.1) and you have an external point to verify the water is circulating properly by feeling heat (no. 2).

I feel that by plumbing the water loop as it was designed (as you now have it), then you have succeeded in proving that water is moving (or not).

A temp. gauge and water pressure gauge will tell you exactly what your outboard is doing and actually help you diagnose potential problems.

If you continue to encounter problems, let me know and I will forward flow diagrams, poppet and powerhead blow-ups and tech. specs. Only by e-mail attachment however..
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Thanks again ncfish. The first picture that shows the water flowing through the tell-tale is the result of having the starboard t-stat removed. I chose to pull the starboard t-stat because it hard the farthest path to the tell-tale.

They are new t-stats. I guess I would be surprised to find that both don't work for some reason, but I suppose it is possible. I think that I will take it down to a local lake for the next test.

Thanks for the offer ncfish.
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

I found a mistake that I made. I don't know if it will affect anything, but I will clean it up and let you know.

When I installed the new t-stats, I thought a gasket was missing between the t-stat house and the cylinder head cover. I am brilliant of course and use gasket goop between the t-stat housing and the cylinder head cover. That didn't work out so well. I picked up some new and propper t-stat gasket (go around the t-stat themselves) and will install that after cleaning up my mess.
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

So....here is where I am at.

- The relief valve assembly parts came in and I replaced those.
- I installed the permanent fittings and hose to connect the relief valve discharge to the top of the block.
- I took the t-stats out and cleaned all of the gasket sealer off the surfaces. Before re-installing, I decided to test the old and new t-stats on the stove. Both opened and closed with changes in water temp as expected. The thermometer I used wasn't the most accurate, but they were open at about the 145 degree mark as mentioned above.
- Put new gaskets on the t-stats and reinstalled them

I turned on the water and started up the engine. The tell tale is still a dribble, but I know this at this point:
- Water pump is new and seems to be pumping plenty of water. Ran the engine without t-stats and with t-stat housings off. Water poured out of t-stat holes as seen above.
- The t-stat discharge/tell tale hose circuit is clear. Tested by running the engine with t-stats removed. Pees strong in this situation.
- t-stats open and close as expected when tested on stove
- Before installing permanent hose from relief valve discharge to top of block, I used clear tubing and could see water circulating.

At this point, I don't know what else to do. I am pretty sure it is in better shape now than it was when I started to tinker around with it. As noted above, the engine didn't overheat before I started all of this. I think the next step is to take it out and run in the local lake. I hoping that once it warms up well, the t-stats will open nice and I will get a stream of water out of the tell-tale.

Next step...Install a pressure gauge.
 

Capt. Crunch

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

[colour=blue]- Before installing permanent hose from relief valve discharge to top of block, I used clear tubing and could see water circulating.[/colour]

Funny, I was going to do the same thing. Was the flow only at above idle rpms? From the top of the block to the poppet?

Thanks,
Dennis
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

It was hard to tell which way it was going. I would say it initially (at idle) went from top of the block down to relief valve. It didn't appear to be a lot of water. After a while the hose had no more air in it and I couldn't tell if the water was moving. In a way, I wish all of the cooling hoses were clear. You could visual check them.

After I did this, I tore into my poppet valve assembly again and found that the grommet was very worn. After that I replaced the poppet assembly parts and put on the permanent hose. Can't tell you if it behaved any different.
 

fishingdan

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Re: 1982 150 poppet valve questions

Finally took the boat out today. Test run was delayed because my tow vehicle had an unexpected week long stay at a body shop (arghhh).

The boat started and while there isn't much coming out of the tell-tale at least I saw some coming out of the vents below the cowling. Additionally, the engine was much quieter.

The bad news is that, now the needle valve on one of the carbs is stuck open and fuel is pouring out everywhere. Time to start a new thread. At least I know something about this problem.

See on you another thread.
 
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