1981 Johnson J50BECIC not starting, stalling - suspect carb, please advice

[racerone]

Oh well-----Talk to your local dealer and he will explain propellers to you.-----Your propeller is NOT one solid piece !!

 

[Carmageddon]

Oh well-----Talk to your local dealer and he will explain propellers to you.-----Your propeller is NOT one solid piece !!

Any way to test this without buying one first just to test? I dont think I can return this kind of thing, if it is not the prop.
And even say it is, how does it reason with engine not starting after stalling as seen in the video? I mean, if it is the prop, why still having starting issues?

 

[racerone]

A new motor with warranty is you best option.------The one you have now is giving you too much grief !

 

[Carmageddon]

A new motor with warranty is you best option.------The one you have now is giving you too much grief !

Just thought I should give an update:
I finally found a mechanic who is cheaper, who has good rapport with me, but 1 hour driving away

We started by inspecting the old gear oil, picture attached - it does not look good

Few days later he opened it up, indeed Front Gear, Pinion and something else (something with cage I think?) needs replacement..
At this point, I think we need to find a whole used replacement lower unit.

Any suggestions on this? Is only the same 1981 Johnson would be suitable replacement?
How to initiate the search? there are no suitable matches on ebay for "johnson 1981 50"

I know the seller after buying it himself, had also issues with lower unit, and he took it to some Marina, and they found suitable unit he got it for about 300 bucks. I am hopeful I could also fetch something similar?

 

[Carmageddon]

Just realized I forgot to upload the picture!

 

[racerone]

Have said it many times.----These 2 cylinder gearcases are NOT robust in my opinion.-----Those 2 cylinder motors are marketed as commercial models , but they used a 3 cylinder lower unit with much bigger gears on those models !!----A $300 used lower unit may have the same issues as yours.-----Shop for an inspected / taken apart used one in my opinion.

 

[Carmageddon]

Have said it many times.----These 2 cylinder gearcases are NOT robust in my opinion.-----Those 2 cylinder motors are marketed as commercial models , but they used a 3 cylinder lower unit with much bigger gears on those models !!----A $300 used lower unit may have the same issues as yours.-----Shop for an inspected / taken apart used one in my opinion.

What is the impact of the bigger gears? that causes lower reliability?

Ok, I agree that shopping for inspected gears/disassembled lower units is the way forward to avoid the same issue.
But, HOW to shop for those? I tried searching on places like ebay for keywords like "1981 johnson 50", and very little suitable stuff coming up...
Is there a specific marketplace for such things?

 

[racerone]

Contact ------evinrudeparts.ca-------They may be able to help you.----The gear teeth on these are SMALL compared to say a 1968 model 40 HP.----I never saw gears fail on those like your 1981 model motor.

 

[Carmageddon]

Hello everyone who helped me out for those 8 pages! Just thought you all deserve a big thank you, and final update on the gears!

So, I found the parts set on eBay! one small thing that allowed me to find ALL parts for sale and pick the best deal, is to do "Advanced search" and turn on search in DESCRIPTION!

I hate eBay, they used to do that by default many years ago, I guess they changed that sometimes..

Anyway, a gear set has arrived, but it turned out that the forward gear is too big!
Upon further communication with the seller, it seems that the gear inside my lower unit, probably came from a different year.. I dont know.
Anyway instead of returning, I found another one selling just the forward gear in the set, so I gambled and ordered that too - and it was a perfect match to mine! (we double checked with digital gauge before buying, to be sure).

Mechanic got it all properly installed today, and it was a perfect match! now I have a spare one which I can either sell as is, or have machine shop machine it down to the same width and thickness as my current one (it has the same teeth, just shaft thickness a bit different), and keep it for future use...

Anyway as I was towing the boat home, a moment of dizziness and I hit the median with the hull!
Details in a new thread: https://forums.iboats.com/forum/boa...er-damage-from-hitting-a-median-how-to-repair

If anyone has any idea about how to fix aluminium damage like that.. I've got a whole winter to learn now


Thanks @raceone, juno pierrat and everyone else who helped for 8 long pages!

 

[racerone]

Any pictures of the gear that did not fit ?-----You are aware that the gear and pinion are usually sold as a " matched set " on these and most other Johnson / Evinrude motors.

 

[Carmageddon]

I attached 4 photos with digital gauge.

You can notice that there is a new excess shaft, as if glued on top of the original!
The measurements are off by about 0.1mm, I can attribute that to the measurements, so I think once it is milled down to the original reference, it would be identical.

Since seller had replaced his lower unit in the past, before I bought, we guess that it must have been a lower unit from a different year.. so the gears a slightly different than the 82 that should come with the engine.

Just to show, this is the original gearset that I've purchased:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/OMC-Johnson...72.m2749.l2649
Which has the mismatching forward gear to the one I had.

And this is the standalone forward gear that I've bought as a gamble, which was used, but in like new condition and PERFECT match to the forward gear that I've had:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AK2A3770-19...72.m2749.l2649


The mechanic initially said it seems to match, but wouldn't be sure until he assembled it, and finally he did, and the news was great - everything matches up and works! (he tested) I didn't test myself yet due to the damage sustained in transit which I'll get fixed on Monday at a shop with MIG welder (linked in post above, separate discussion thread).

So what do you think best to do with this forward gear? mill it down to reference specs of mine and keep/sell? sell as is? in either case lol I am confused as what part number would I be listing it...

 

[racerone]

The gear with the tapered bearing is for a 1978 and earlier 55 HP model.-----This is just more proof that some sellers on E-bay have no clue what they are selling !!!------The gearcase on your motor is a 78 or older replacement !-----The gear on the left is for 79 to 88 models I believe.----And gears are usually sold FORWARD and PINION as a matched set on newer motors.----But aftermarket will sell you anything and folks buy because they simply do not know about " fine fitting " of precision gears !!

 

[Carmageddon]

The gear with the tapered bearing is for a 1978 and earlier 55 HP model.-----This is just more proof that some sellers on E-bay have no clue what they are selling !!!------The gearcase on your motor is a 78 or older replacement !-----The gear on the left is for 79 to 88 models I believe.----And gears are usually sold FORWARD and PINION as a matched set on newer motors.----But aftermarket will sell you anything and folks buy because they simply do not know about " fine fitting " of precision gears !!

So, you saying that they put in a lower unit from older years than the original 81` that came with the engine?

I am attaching a picture of how the assembly looks like, with my old one!

Let me try and understand what you are saying, My lower unit is earlier than 78`, and so the correct OEM gearset I had did not match the gearcase with bearing, is that right?

Was it better to look for an original gearcase, or go the route that I went where I got a use OEM forward gear?

What is the possible side affects of having a Pinion from "78` and above" set, mashed with forward gear matching the one I had? (assuming the pinion design changed and it is not 100% match, but close).

What kit or parts would you have gotten instead?

 

[racerone]

I give up.----Perhaps your local dealer can assist you.----It is all easy to me , but it appears I have trouble explaining it from a distance.

 

[flyingscott]

The gear cases on those motors are not robust units. The fact you have a replacement unit is no surprise at all. Next time wait until you have it apart to order the correct parts. The only way you will know if the lower unit will work is to run it. Is your Mechanic a Factory trained or a shade tree? Since he put it together he should know if it is going to work or not.

 

[Carmageddon]

The gear cases on those motors are not robust units. The fact you have a replacement unit is no surprise at all. Next time wait until you have it apart to order the correct parts. The only way you will know if the lower unit will work is to run it. Is your Mechanic a Factory trained or a shade tree? Since he put it together he should know if it is going to work or not.

By "those motors", do you mean all 2 cycle engines? or just 70s-80s Johnson/Evinrude?

I ordered the parts only after I had it apart, on inspection the pictures looked very close, just the pattern in the front inside was slightly different but I was confused by the assurance of the seller it is compatible to the 81` engine, AND that it was OEM part superseding the old part number, so I assumed something minor changed.

Only after it arrived, I had the options of either returning both, and look for the correct one which seemed impossible - I was only able to find the standalone one I linked on ebay (second link), which was identical to mine, including the number embossed on it (not showing up on any catalog/schema, so dont know what it means).

So I guess, my other question is, next time, how do I ensure I have the correct part, and what to do about that spare one now? machine it down to reference specs and keep/resell? resell it as is?

My other question is about raceone's statement which he was not able to explain unfortunately:

The gear with the tapered bearing is for a 1978 and earlier 55 HP model

How does he know that? the schemas I saw and pictures don't show these kind of details unfortunately.. I'd love to understand how to judge this kind of stuff myself.

Lastly, thanks again for taking the time to explain and read through my questions - Appreciated!

 

[racerone]

I know that because I started working on outboards in about 1968.-----Those 2 cylinder 40 / 45 / 55 / 60 hp gearcases are NOT ROBUST.----I have some of those gearcases.------Some rebuilt , some to be rebuilt !!

 

[Carmageddon]

I know that because I started working on outboards in about 1968.-----Those 2 cylinder 40 / 45 / 55 / 60 hp gearcases are NOT ROBUST.----I have some of those gearcases.------Some rebuilt , some to be rebuilt !!

Ok, how long do they last after a rebuild like that? Are all 2 40-60HP gearboxes NOT robust? Are others like 150HP 2 cycle reliable?

EDIT: Would you advice on selling it asap now that it works, and replacing with something more reliable? I'd very much like to enjoy it for 1-2 seasons, until I know exactly what I want for long term enjoyment...

 

[racerone]

There was no mention of 150 HP gearcases in my posts.-----Compare the gears ( teeth ) on say a 1967 model 40 HP to the gears in your your 1982 model 60 HP.-----Look at the rear axle of a pick-up truck and compare that to the size of a 150 HP outboard lower unit , do you agree that the outboard is a HIGHLY STRESSED piece of machinery.----I did not check out / rebuild your unit.----So I can not give an opinion on how long it will last.

 

[Carmageddon]

There was no mention of 150 HP gearcases in my posts.-----Compare the gears ( teeth ) on say a 1967 model 40 HP to the gears in your your 1982 model 60 HP.-----Look at the rear axle of a pick-up truck and compare that to the size of a 150 HP outboard lower unit , do you agree that the outboard is a HIGHLY STRESSED piece of machinery.----I did not check out / rebuild your unit.----So I can not give an opinion on how long it will last.

Thats not really a good comparison.. one is designed to go through hundreds of thousands of miles, the other - I dont know, but doubt it?
Are you saying ALL outboards are highly stressed machines? kind of like those small 1.4Litre turbo charged economic engines popular in Europe?

Side question - tomorrow morning I am going to a weld shop to get the hull damage linked on the other thread fixed using MIG welding.
I already removed the battery and gas tanks, anything else I should do to safeguard the engine while they weld?