1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

[spencroy]

I just purchased my first boat and I am up against my first problem before ever getting to the lake and could use your advice.

Boat Specs:
1977 Ranger with Johnson 115 (I think its V4)

My Problem:
The Tilt and Trim does not work.

What I have done so far:
Following the advice I have seen in this form I disconnected the Trim motor from the sylanoid last night and connected it a cable directly from the POS terminal on my battery to the Green or Blue cables - The motor made no noise and didnt lift/lower
I checked the voltage traveling down the wire and I am indeed getting 12 V down the green/blue depending on which is connected

So, if I understand things correctly I have one of the following:
1. A bad trim motor
2. Something wrong in the hydrolic system

My question:
The tilt is currently in the "up" position. What is my best way to troubleshoot what to do next?

My Plan:
Next I was thinking of taking out the trim motor and hot wiring it to the battery to see if it is making any noise (seeing if its even functional .. does that make any sense?) before spending the 200+ bucks to replace. However, I am concerned with doing things in the correct way as to not introduce other problems (like getting air in my hydro lines) etc.

Any advice any of you could give me would be greatly appreciated. As I said I am a first time owner (newbie) so if there is additional information I could provide which would help please let me know.
Roy

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Before I address your trim issue, I would also look into the water pump/impeller before you hit the water, cheap to replace, but expensive if it fails, if you need any help in this just ask. Secondly I would highly reccomend getting yourself a manual, it will pay for itself a million times over. Now on to your trim problem. When you try to hit a button, does the solenoid in the connection box operate (click)? If it does not, your inline fuse is probably blown, it is located right beside the solenoid. If it does click, remove the motor from the manifold, run the motor off the manifold, if the motor does not run, you need to replace the motor. If it does run, you need to check the pump. Remeber as long as the motor isnt badly water logged and rotted, it can be rebuilt for cheap. Let me know what you find.

 

[spencroy]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Thank you so much for your reply.

1. I will get a manual (working on that now) just picked up the boat the night before last
2. I certainly will take notice of the impeller/water pump prior to first launch. I will probably have to ask some questions on that.

To answer your questions:
Does the solenoid click = Yes it does (at first I took that as a bad sign, but in reading the forms it appears that indicates a good solenoid)

Next when you say "remove the motor from the manifold, run the motor off the manifold" I understand that to mean "Remove the motor from where it is currently, connect directly to the battery and test for operation" I hope I am not missing the point.
So the only part of this process I am a little usure of is:
1. Do I drain the hydro fluid, or just remove the tilt motor?
2. should the motor make any noise when energized (I am sure that is probably a dumb question but bear with me ?

I will try my understanding of your suggestions and post my results. Thanks so much for the advice (because I was looking for a "For the love of God dont do XZY" and it looks like I didnt get one )
Thanks
Roy

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

When you jumped a hot wire to it did you ground the other color wire?
Is it a 2 wire pump or 3 wire?

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Yes a clicking solenoid means that it is working. If your motor is in the up position right now, hard wire the green wire to the battery. Green is for down "like the grass" and blue is for up "like the sky". Sorry for the cheesy analogy, but it will help to remind you what each wire is for. After hard wiring the green wire, the motor should lower, and yes, you will hear it operating. If you dont hear it spinning, and it doesnt lower, the motor is shot. Look into getting it rebuilt before you buy a new one, sometimes all it takes is 20 or 30 bucks to get it going, but if it is badly rotted like i said, a rebuild wont cut it. Most small motor/ starter/ alternator repair shops will take it. If you do need to get it off, you may need to unbolt the port side (left side facing the rear of the boat, you did say you were a newbie !! )
transom braket and slide it to the left to be able to get the trim unit out. All the repair shop will need is the motor, so remove it by taking the 3 star screws out.

 

[spencroy]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Gary,
There are 3 wires out of the pump itself (I think they are red, blue and black) but I will confirm that tonight. Additionally there is another black thin wire which runs out of the coupling where the motor cables attached to the solenoid, and was attached to the frame of the motor (assuming that was to ground it, but I couldnt understand why they didn't have it grounded to the battery?).

When I initally hooked the hot wire up to the red wire terminal, and put my voltimeter on the cable it was only pulling .2 v. I thought this was naturally the issue so I disconnected that extra ground from the engine mount, and ran it directly to the ground on the battery. From that point forward when I would put the hot wire to either the red or the blue terminal the voltimeter would read 12V on the red/green wire

I am a bit of a novice, so if I am making a bone headed mistake let me know.
so in short "When you jumped a hot wire to it did you ground the other color wire?" = Not 100% sure I did it correctly. I will try to provide pictures of what I did soon. Thanks for the post.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

here is a wiring diagram of what you should have.

 

[spencroy]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Hey HighTrim,
You said in your last post "If you do need to get it off, you may need to unbolt the port side", and man has that step got me stumped. I hope I am just missing something obvious on this one.

It appears that bolt is just a 5/16 bolt, but the problem is that I cant get a socket on that bolt head with the hydrolic lift strut in place, and an end wrench wont get it either. The only way I can figure to remove the strut is to disconnect the hydrolic lines at the bottom, but even then there is not enough cleance to get the strut out.

Am I missing something obvious here. Do I need to buy a "s" shaped end wrench? It seems to me that removing that trim motor should not be so complicated.

Any words of wisdom?

 

[spencroy]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Ignore my last question. I found the answer
http://www.outboardrepairs.com/topics/008780.html

man I am a newbie
Forrest.. meet the trees... trees.. forrest

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

On the 3 wire setup the black is ground.Mine is a 2 wire and i watched a boat tech test mine when i bought the new pump,he put green to + and blue to -
just wondered if yours was the 2 wire..

 

[spencroy]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Follow up question - Best method to refill the Trim Motor after replacement.

So, long story short I had a spring broken in my motor. I have found (at a local alternator shop) the replacement springs and I will try to finish up rebuilding that motor tonight (note: thank god for my neighbor Chico who know's how to fix just about anything)

In relation to Gary's reply, I have a 3 wire setup (red/blue/black) so I think I am going to use HighTrim's trick Red (Hell) down, Blue (sky) up, and Black ground.

My next question is once I replace the motor what is the best method for refilling the hydrolic fluid.
1. I plan to use Automatic Transmission Fluid based on other form updates
2. How do I "bleed" the lines like you would on say brakes
3. Do I use the motor to fill the struts, or do I manually lift the engine?

I will try to drill around for other forms that may cover this topic, but I thought I would ask as you guys have helped a great deal thus far. Should I start a new thread for this question?
Thanks

 

[ezeke]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Edit

 

[1730V]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

The system has to be filled with the engine in the UP position. It is self bleeding. You may have to top it off several times.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Im glad you got it, good thing for handy neighbours eh. 1730 gave you good advice on the bleeding procedure. Rest your motor on the trail locks, fill the resevoir, cycle it a few times, re check and re fill, cycle, etc... It is self bleeding like he said. ATF fluid is fine, or you can get the TNT fluid from your local dealer /marina. I use the ATF Dexron III Synthetic when my dealer is out of the OMC stuff, it is a bit cheaper. Now all you need to do is find the fish!

 

[spencroy]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

In response to ezeke's questions.
1. "what model number is your motor?" = I will have to get back to you with the model number (I wrote it down but my wife cant' read my handwriting. I will update soon with the number)

2. Is the Tilt and Trim unit completely contained between the transom brackets? = Yes

3. If you know where I could find, or if you have the wiring diagram for the 1977 115?

In regards to 1730V's update, I will fill the reservoir with the engine in the up position (using the transom saver). My question would be at that point do I energize the motor and allow it to fill the pistons?

Thanks for all the advice so far guys

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Yes after you fill it, screw the resevoir plug back in, cycle the motor up and down a few times back to the up position, then re fill it. Ezeke already posted the proper wiring diagram for you, check back on his thread, Im sorry I lead you wrong with my improper diagram, I was under the wrong impression of your motor.

 

[spencroy]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Man.. thank you guys so much for all the advice. I will let you know the results (may even have her ready for this weekend)

However, I have not forgoten the first thing you said to me HighTrim... will be checking out the bilge pump next

Thanks

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

No, not the bildge pump, the impeller, it is located in the lower unit and directs cooling water to the power head to keep it from overheating. Very important piece of the water pump to ensure that your motor doesnt overheat. They are made of rubber so as they sit they get brittle or fall apart, and if it detereorates while you are on the water, you will not be able to stop it fast enough to keep from damaging your powerhead. Im sure your next thread will read "How to remove the lower unit on a 1977 Johnson" lol

 

[ezeke]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Edit

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1977 Johnson Tilt and Trim -could use troubleshooting advice

Ezeke I was just wondering if they changed it from 76 to 77 and then back again. My 76 Johnson is complete between the brackets with the blue, green, black 3 wire motor