12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

jrampey

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I need to buy batteries for a 12 volt trolling motor. The current 12 volt battery is dead, and I want to increase my trolling time. Should I buy (2) 12 volt batteries and run them in parallel or (2) 6 volt batteries and run them in series?
 

EricKit

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

I need to buy batteries for a 12 volt trolling motor. The current 12 volt battery is dead, and I want to increase my trolling time. Should I buy (2) 12 volt batteries and run them in parallel or (2) 6 volt batteries and run them in series?

Hello,

I would suggest the batteries in parallel. If one dies (and does not make a short), your circuit will still work. Also, I know in parallel they will charge easily (one battery doesn't have to go through the other), but then again I figure in series as the second battery charges it will then charge the first.

I bet each 12 volt battery can hold more charge. Look at the rating on the battery in Amp-Hours. This is the current times time. Add the two batteries together for the total Amp-Hours of the batteries for both series and parallel. If you know the current draw on your trolling motor (Which will probably be rated at max, you want to know average) you can calculate how long each battery will last by dividing the total amp-hours by the current draw of the trolling motor.

To make your battery last longer, look at what types it is. For example, Lithium Ion batteries do not suffer from crystalization, so you should not discharge them (It's bad for it). But Nickel Cadmium can suffer from crystalization or the "memory effect" where if you do not fully discharge it each time, it increases internal resistance and gives less battery life. Lead-Acid batteries should never be discharged < 20% of their full capacity because internal resistance will cause heat damage when recharged.
 

Silvertip

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

You do not get twice the amp/hours with two six volt batteries in series. You double the voltage to arrive at 12 volts, but you do not get double the current. If you parallel the two batteries you still have six volts but double the amperage. The same holds true for 12 volt batteries in parallel. Still provides 12 volts but double the current. Unless you use golf car or fork lift batteries which are gosh awful heavy, you would be better off weight and cost wise with two high capacity (group 27 size) twelves in parallel.
 

bruceb58

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

Hello,

I would suggest the batteries in parallel. If one dies (and does not make a short), your circuit will still work. Also, I know in parallel they will charge easily (one battery doesn't have to go through the other), but then again I figure in series as the second battery charges it will then charge the first.

I bet each 12 volt battery can hold more charge. Look at the rating on the battery in Amp-Hours. This is the current times time. Add the two batteries together for the total Amp-Hours of the batteries for both series and parallel. If you know the current draw on your trolling motor (Which will probably be rated at max, you want to know average) you can calculate how long each battery will last by dividing the total amp-hours by the current draw of the trolling motor.

To make your battery last longer, look at what types it is. For example, Lithium Ion batteries do not suffer from crystallization, so you should not discharge them (It's bad for it). But Nickel Cadmium can suffer from crystallization or the "memory effect" where if you do not fully discharge it each time, it increases internal resistance and gives less battery life. Lead-Acid batteries should never be discharged < 20% of their full capacity because internal resistance will cause heat damage when recharged.

Series is the best. Not sure why you are even bringing up battery technology other than lead-acid. He is asking for his trolling motor...not a camera.

For deep discharge batteries, you only want to discharge down to 50% which is around 12V. Has nothing to do with internal resistance or heat damage when being charged. Has everything to do with the size of the plates and losing material after a deep discharge.

As silvertip pointed out, the capacity of the batteries in series is equal to the capacity of one battery. It doubles if you have two 12V batteries in parallel.
 

jrampey

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

OK, From what I've learned sofar... I add the current from batteries in parallel, and add the voltage of batteries in series. I can find 12 volt batteries with up to 225 minutes reserve capacity at 25 amps. AND 6 volt batteries with 450 minutes RC... so its a draw? I've heard that batteries in parallel will draw charge out of the weaker... how would I charge these batteries. I know that there are 2 and 3 bank marine chargers for 12 volt batteries... what can I do for 6 volts... individual chargers? Can I charge them with the engine while wired in series? Questions, questions, questions
 

Silvertip

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

You can use a 12 volt charger with a single output for both systems. For the two six volt batteries in series you connect the charger across both batteries (neg on one to pos on the other). Remember a battery is s "battery of cells". There are three of them (2 volts each) in a six volt battery. Put two sixes in series and you really have the very same thing as two sixes in a single container like a 12 volt battery. If you have two 12 volt batteries in series, that becomes a situation where you need to charge them individually or you need a charger with two sets of outputs where one set goes to each battery. You can also use that in a parallel system but it is not necessary. A single output charger in that application is just looking at a great big 12 volt battery. As for discharging one battery quicker than the other -- that's an issue only if you have one very old battery or one that is drastically different in capacity than the other. If both batteries are relatively new, the same type (deep cycle) and the same size (capacity) paralleling them is just fine. If that bothers you, add a switch. Run on one battery until it gives up and then switch to the other.
 

jrampey

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

Hey - I like that idea... then I'd know when I'm "half empty" and I'd have one in reserve for engine starting if needed. thanks, looks like (2) 12 volts it is.
 

bruceb58

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

You still need to monitor the battery and make sure it doesn't go below 12.0V.
 

Silvertip

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

The locator will do that. Set the low voltage alarm.
 

fishrdan

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

Are you planning on running the trolling motor off your start battery, or using one of the TM batteries as a backup start battery?

I've run 2- 12V batteries in parallel for years, but recently installed a battery switch to keep them isolated from each other. I found the switched independent batteries will run longer than 1 parallel bank. After some time (months, years), 1 of the batteries will stabilize at a lower voltage after charging, and drag down the better battery to that voltage

I thought about running 2- 6V batteries in series, but... if one of the 6V batteries fails your 12V trolling motor bank is shot, (can't run down to Wally World in a pinch and pick up a 6V battery). The same can be said for a paralleled 12V bank as a bad battery will drain the good one, but the switch will solve this problem.

Also, once you deplete both of the 12V batteries by themselves, you can combine them with the switch to give you a tiny reserve, not much, but a little bit. The difference of being dead on the water or crawling that last 100yds back to the dock on the TM.
 

jrampey

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

I will have 3 batteries total. one for starting and two for trolling motor... with two A, B or, A + B battery switches I can use different combinations of switch settings to power the trolling motor or crank the engine. Thanks everyone for helping me figure this out... NOW - a three bank charger... any recommendations? Money is an object!
 

Silvertip

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

You do NOT want the starting battery used in combination with the others for trolling motor power. You will sooner or later leave yourself with three dead batteries and since it is a starting -- not a deep cycle battery it should not be used for troller duty. You also don't need a three bank charger. Parallel all three batteries via the switches and buy one big single output on-board or portable charger. The start battery will be taken care of by the engine and it is rarely deeply discharged so there is really no reason to have it in the charging mix. Nothing wrong with doing it though.
 

EricKit

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

I just wanted to elaborate on the part about when to stop discharging your battery. Keep in mind using 12V should be fine, or any of the low voltage monitors they described! I'm just telling you how I'd do it to get maximum water time out of my battery without damaging it since a generic low voltage monitor isn't calibrated for my battery. Also the switch idea is great, because of the differences in batteries I'm about to explain. Silvertip's reasons for using the switch show how different batteries can be.

Most batteries have this drop-off point where they start losing voltage very fast (EVERY battery is different). When you find where this voltage point is for your batteries, then stop discharging them before this point and no damage should occur.

individually testing each battery would be best. You would then select the highest drop-off point of the two batteries and stop using the batteries before this voltage (See graph link below). To do this you can just keep measuring your voltage with a multimeter while you are using the trolling motor. You will see the voltage slowly lowering as time goes on, then at one point you will see it start going down fast.

Digital multi-meters use very little power since they put a high resistor in parallel with your circuit, so don't worry about it using too much power.

Here is a graph of different lead-acid batteries. Your battery will most likely be one of the higher C batteries.

http://www.powerstream.com/z/dh.jpg

The "C" rating means that the batteries maximum discarge is that many times the amp-hour rating. So if a battery is 1 amp-hour (Not amp/hour), with 20C, then it can continuously and safely discharge 20 Amps maximum for 1/20th of an hour. Likewise a battery of 1C which is 2 amp-hour can discharge at 2 amps for an hour (and no faster). If you can figure out your C rating, then you can see how your battery should perform among these guide lines. Notice that a 1C battery should discharge at full power in an hour (no less) but if you look at the graph, they discharge faster than that! Keep that in mind, as their maximum Amp-hour rating is higher than is acutally useable.

About my previous post, silvertip is right, series does not add the Amp-Hours, my mistake.

As for the other comments, it does get damaged by increase in internal resistance more during a full discharge and recharge (I've measured it after a fast recharge, I've done a lot of experiments on battery cells). As for the corrosion of plates, The plates are coated with a thin coat of lead sulfate when discharged. When recharged, it goes back to lead and sulfuric acid. However, if the battery remains discharged for a while that thin coat starts forming hard crystals of lead sulfate which can be nearly impossible to remove during a standard fixed voltage charge process. With the %'s you get, be careful using them because it is a percent of maximum capacity. How do you know where you are in capacity while boating? You'd need to characterize your battery (I have a table posted below which may help knowing % vs Voltage for the average battery).

Anyways, check the maintenance section here to see about the internal resistance

http://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-energy/batteries/

The link below shows the drop-off Voltage in terms of %'s which may be helpful about 3/4's down the page. this page also says 20% is the minumum, but 50% is best for lifespan vs cost, which according to the table should happen around 12 Volts (so 12 volts should work), on most batteries.

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Cycles vs Life

Another page explaining how lead-acid internal resistance increases with discharge:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-22.htm
 

bruceb58

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

Here is a graph of different lead-acid batteries. Your battery will most likely be one of the higher C batteries.

http://www.powerstream.com/z/dh.jpg

The "C" rating means that the batteries maximum discarge is that many times the amp-hour rating. So if a battery is 1 amp-hour (Not amp/hour), with 20C, then it can continuously and safely discharge 20 Amps maximum for 1/20th of an hour. Likewise a battery of 1C which is 2 amp-hour can discharge at 2 amps for an hour (and no faster). If you can figure out your C rating, then you can see how your battery should perform among these guide lines. Notice that a 1C battery should discharge at full power in an hour (no less) but if you look at the graph, they discharge faster than that! Keep that in mind, as their maximum Amp-hour rating is higher than is acutally useable.

Eric,

You don't understand what the "C" means. C = capacity of the battery. In the graph, those discharge curves are all for the same battery. The individual curves are the discharge rate of the battery in terms of precentage of C. If your battery capacity is 100Ahr and you discharge it at 0.9C, you are discharging at 90A. Likewise 0.1C is 10A. The various curves show the discharge at various rates all for the same battery.

You still don't understand what causes the internal resistance of a battery. You may want to try reading the links you posted.

As far as the OP is concerned, I don't think he really needs to care about internal resistance of batteries.

This link that you posted is the best. It explains what you should be discharging to:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Cycles vs Life
 

EricKit

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

Eric,

You don't understand what the "C" means. C = capacity of the battery. In the graph, those discharge curves are all for the same battery. The individual curves are the discharge rate of the battery in terms of precentage of C. If your battery capacity is 100Ahr and you discharge it at 0.9C, you are discharging at 90A. Likewise 0.1C is 10A. The various curves show the discharge at various rates all for the same battery.

You still don't understand what causes the internal resistance of a battery. You may want to try reading the links you posted.

As far as the OP is concerned, I don't think he really needs to care about internal resistance of batteries.

This link that you posted is the best. It explains what you should be discharging to:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Cycles vs Life


Ah you are right, for that graph it is the capacity of a battery, the reason I explaind C as I did above is because the batteries we would work with would come with a max amperage rating as described by C, and it would be something like 20C (And for your useage of it that would not make sense). But, yes, that is how they are using that C. And thanks for the info on internal resistance. It is mostly dependant on the rate at which you are discharging/recharging the battery, however a full recharge due to the internal resistance and the heat it causes can damage a battery I have found. (Not increase the internal resistance, misworded that).
 

Silvertip

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

Eric is apparently working with Lithium Polymer, Lithium Ion or that style of battery where discharge "rates" are listed as xxC (20C or 30C for example). A 20C LiPo for example can be discharged at a rate that is 20 times its rated capacity. Exceed that rate or damage the pack and you have and explosion followed by fire and smoke. But then again, all of this has nothing to do with the posters question and his eyes are proabably starting to bleed.
 

bruceb58

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Re: 12 volt or (2) 6 volt?

The question here is regarding lead-acid batteries.

The 12V vs using 2 6V batteries is an issue with motorhomes. If you want to do what they do, you use 2 6V batteries in series. You only have to monitor the set of batteries that way and you don't have any charging issues if one cell starts dropping compared to the others.
 
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