Why go with an I/O?

767Captain

Seaman
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Aug 18, 2009
Messages
59
Re: Why go with an I/O?

I view I/O's as I do generic "runabouts". They try to be all things, but do nothing really very well. They're not good for skiing, that takes an inboard. Wakeboarding boats are usually V-drive. Barefoot waterskiers use outboards. You rarely see an I/O fishing boat; both bass boats and ocean sportfishing boats are predominantly outboard. Larger cruisers are inboard.

The so/cal style hot "river" boats have pretty much gone to I/O, they used to be inboard or v-drive, occasionally a Merc tower of power.... They spend most of the time bombing up and down the Colorado River, again; not skiing or fishing.

So, the boats that typically have I/O's are the run of the mill runabouts that do many things mediocre, but nothing very well...

We've had eight boats, none of them an I/O...
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Why go with an I/O?

Well you could argue that inboards do nothing "well" as they can't even figure out which way they are supposed to push. Add that I/Os and Pod Drives are starting to creep into larger and larger boats and it could be said that Inboards are losing market share ;)

FWIW I consider I/Os to be an engineering abortion, but they make for an efficient package and a clean install . . .
 

109jb

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Jul 15, 2008
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1,590
Re: Why go with an I/O?

You do know that it's a federal law that all boats under 20' have enough flotation so they can't sink? And an OB is MUCH more likely to swamp in green water conditions than an I/O?

That is a pretty broad statement that I'm afraid you can't back up with the articles you posted. While I won't argue that many outboard boats have splashwells that make them more susceptible to swamping, there are also outboard boats that have well designed splashwells and yet others that have the outboards on brackets and don't even have splashwells, Some of these designs are arguably LESS susceptible to swamping due to their design than just about anything else in the same size category of boat.

The article you cited states that out of a sample of 50 boats 13 swamped were outboard, 1 was inboard, and 1 was a sailboat. What the article didn't say was what the other 35 boats were. It also didn't say what the sizes of the boats in the sample were other than to say they ranged from PWC to 54' sailboat. IMO without knowing this information, the data is simply anecdotal.

The article also stated the following stats for why boats sink underway:

Taking Water Over the Gunwales: 30%
Leaks at Thru-hulls: 18%
Leaks at Raw water Cooling System/Exhaust: 12%
Drain Plug Missing: 12%
Navigation Error (Grounding): 10%
Boat Construction (Hull Split Open): 6%
Leaks at Outdrive Boots: 4%
Struck Floating Debris: 4%
Other: 4%

Two of these don't even apply to outboard boats (raw water cooling leaks and outdrive boot leaks), but account for 16 percent of the sample that sunk. That would be 8 boats out of the 50 that sunk for something that doesn't affect outboards. However, once again without knowing the whole story about the sample group the data isn't useful. For example we don't know what percentage of the sample were outboard, I/O, PWC, sailboat, 15 foot, 30 foot, whatever. If the sample happened to have 40 outboards in it then one would expect the data to be skewed against outboards. I'm not saying the sample was skewed, but without knowing the details we can't judge that aspect.

The data was also for claims for boats that had sunk. I would argue that the well designed outboards didn't sink and are therefore not even in the sample. What you would really need to judge this is a statistical study of hours of operation per sinking of both outboards and I/O's. That study would also need to differentiate the size of the boats.
 

45Auto

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May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Why go with an I/O?

109jb said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45Auto
You do know that it's a federal law that all boats under 20' have enough flotation so they can't sink? And an OB is MUCH more likely to swamp in green water conditions than an I/O?

Quote by 109jb: That is a pretty broad statement that I'm afraid you can't back up with the articles you posted.

Which part of the quote do you doubt??? Federal law is here (you want page 20):

www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/downloads/FLOTATION.pdf

The original statement by high'n'dry claimed that he preferred outboards because of their green water abilities. Look at the pic of his boat (Boston Whaler). Note the transom height .....

Do you doubt that the BoatUS Marine Insurance and Damage Avoidance Report said:

The single most critical reason boats are flooded on open water has to do with transom height.

I never claimed that there were not other reasons boats sink. The discussion was specifically about open water. No big deal if you don't agree with BoatUS about outboards, it's still a free country. Feel free to cite any other studys you are aware of.

Some boats are well-designed, some aren't. The vast majority of outboards DON"T have brackets.
 

WAVENBYE2

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
1,636
Re: Why go with an I/O?

I like my I/0, I have grown up with OB's and they are OK, But I love my I/O.
Just my own personal preference, Like it was said earlier, It's really what You prefer that matters.
 

high'n'dry

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jul 10, 2008
Messages
156
Re: Why go with an I/O?

You do know that it's a federal law that all boats under 20' have enough flotation so they can't sink? And an OB is MUCH more likely to swamp in green water conditions than an I/O? If you're really concerned about green water conditions, it might be worth your while to do some research.

Here's a link to an article about why boats swamp in open water:

Stopping the Water
Source: Seaworthy Magazine: the BoatUS Marine Insurance and Damage Avoidance Report

http://www.seamark-marine.com/seamark_news.html

I don't agree and your sources are in error, that article is not an authority and inaccurate, been there, read it before, not impressed. There are some basic misconceptions advanced that are not accurate, especially concerning motor wells, notched transoms etc. As to the level flotation etc, that is all true, but most will not float level when fully flooded and with a maximum load aboard, they will wind up, bow poking up and the stern below and upside down. of course, any boat can capsize, that is always good to remember. Some boat types have flotation in EXCESS of level requirements.

I don't need a magazine to tell me what I have learned from years on big water in small boats. I want a self bailing hull, full liner, preferably in larger (greater than 30 feet) boats an inboard and in smaller hulls an outboard. There are two approaches to dealing with water, one is to attempt to keep it out with high gunwales, full stern. The other is quite the opposite yet very functional, assume the water is going to come in and then design to shed it rapidly, low(er) gunwales and notched or open stern such that it is impossible to hold enough water to founder the boat.

On several occasions I have had waves go over my boat from both the bow and the stern, a seaworthy boat is designed to shed water rapidly IMO, high sides and stern trap water and are slow to shed. A notched transom, throttle up, the water goes out the cutout, the rest drains rapidly from the scuppers and away you go. Such designs are meant to be capable of operating with ankle/calf deep water on the deck and the power and stability to continue to operate.

I would hate to depend on a bilge pump or have a small boat with an engine below deck vulnerable to flooding.

The OP asked a question, I gave my answer, it will not change, there are no perfect boats.
 

45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Why go with an I/O?

that article is not an authority

And you supposedly are???? :D

and inaccurate

Feel free to point out any inaccuracies and back up your statements with DATA.

I gave my answer, it will not change.

Good for you. Are you by any chance a member of the "Flat Earth Society"? :)
 

high'n'dry

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jul 10, 2008
Messages
156
Re: Why go with an I/O?

And you supposedly are???? :D



Feel free to point out any inaccuracies and back up your statements with DATA.



Good for you. Last thing we want around here is any kind of logical discussion backed up by FACTS! :)


There is no data presented in that article, it is just anecdotal. You can select statistics to back up any position, the laws of physics will not be impressed. My data is that I am still, despite all, high and dry.

Yes, I am an experienced salt water boater having grown up on and boating on the Gulf, diving and fishing in small boats.

I am sorry my opinion bothers you, it will nonetheless not change to suit you.

If you want data, look at the market, almost all smaller offshore and saltwater boats are outboard. Yes, there are some I/O and inboard as well, but the majority are the outboard equipped hulls. There are many reasons for that, some have been touched upon. Some will be argued until hell freezes over.
 

high'n'dry

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jul 10, 2008
Messages
156
Re: Why go with an I/O?

The original statement by high'n'dry claimed that he preferred outboards because of their green water abilities. Look at the pic of his boat (Boston Whaler). Note the transom height .....
.

Dude, I assure you that boat has been in conditions that would scare the Hades out of you. You simply are mistaken and don't fully comprehend what design characteristics function together. I don't usually try to back into eight footers with 70 MPH winds. BTW, as I said,, that boat and several others I have owned have been fully underwater from waves from bow to stern. It is scary and the outcome is never assured. The notched transom was not a concern, it was an advantage. I prefer to avoid such things nowadays.

You have taken this personal and are now bashing my specific boat, since you are going that way, I will not follow. It is known and accepted that BW boats and many similar designs (Grady, Edgewater, Parker etc) are highly seaworthy, if you question this, you are lost to reason.

Nine out of ten 'cudas prefer outboards with notched transoms. Just an informal poll by my "chick."

IMG_0546_edited-1.jpg


BTW, I never really said I would not own an I/O (just not for offshore utility) and if I did I apologize, there are some nice ones, I like a 22 foot Donzi I saw a few weeks ago, if I was wanting to impress "chicks" or anyone for that matter it would do, fast, sexy, beautiful and I/O---;). It was beautiful!!!!! Sorry if I stirred you up, all of you guys have some beautiful boats.

This here is a 50 cal, so punk, what ya say about notched transom outboards? Make my day: (Sorry, that is my best Dirty Harry)

default.jpg
 

109jb

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,590
Re: Why go with an I/O?

Which part of the quote do you doubt??? Federal law is here (you want page 20):

www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/downloads/FLOTATION.pdf

The original statement by high'n'dry claimed that he preferred outboards because of their green water abilities. Look at the pic of his boat (Boston Whaler). Note the transom height .....

Do you doubt that the BoatUS Marine Insurance and Damage Avoidance Report said:



I never claimed that there were not other reasons boats sink. The discussion was specifically about open water. No big deal if you don't agree with BoatUS about outboards, it's still a free country. Feel free to cite any other studys you are aware of.

Some boats are well-designed, some aren't. The vast majority of outboards DON"T have brackets.

I was not referring to the part of you post regarding flotation requirements, but rather to the so called study regarding why boats sink and the very general broad claim that outboards (broad description) are MUCH easier to swamp in green water. As I said that study sampled 50 boats that had sunk. How about the millions that didn't. If you do a study to determine which is more likely to sink you have to have a baseline to compare them to. The baseline would have to be same operating environment, same or similar size boats, hours of operation, etc, All I am saying is that the study you cited does not give enough information to make a claim that outboards (used generally like you did) are MUCH (Your word) more likely to swamp in green water. It does not state the operating environments, boat sizes, etc. Therefore, I stand by what I said. Without knowing the details of the sample that study is only a summary of why 50 random boats sunk. Was that 30 outboard boats, 10 I/O's, 1 PWC, 1 Sailboat, and 8 inboards?? Or were there 4 sailboats?? Were all the I/O's in the sample over 20 feet and all the outboards under 20 feet? I didn't see any statistics saying what the sampling consisted of. Without it you can't make any kind of reasonable claim that one type is more or less susceptible than any other type. 50 is also a small sampling and no clue was given as to the selection criteria of those 50 cases.
 

RotaryRacer

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Jul 18, 2004
Messages
1,361
Re: Why go with an I/O?

45Auto give it up. The smilies in your post don't help. The tone of your last few posts is condescending and not appropriate.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,503
Re: Why go with an I/O?

That is a pretty broad statement that I'm afraid you can't back up with the articles you posted. While I won't argue that many outboard boats have splashwells that make them more susceptible to swamping, there are also outboard boats that have well designed splashwells and yet others that have the outboards on brackets and don't even have splashwells, Some of these designs are arguably LESS susceptible to swamping due to their design than just about anything else in the same size category of boat.

The article you cited states that out of a sample of 50 boats 13 swamped were outboard, 1 was inboard, and 1 was a sailboat. What the article didn't say was what the other 35 boats were. It also didn't say what the sizes of the boats in the sample were other than to say they ranged from PWC to 54' sailboat. IMO without knowing this information, the data is simply anecdotal.

The article also stated the following stats for why boats sink underway:

Taking Water Over the Gunwales: 30%
Leaks at Thru-hulls: 18%
Leaks at Raw water Cooling System/Exhaust: 12%
Drain Plug Missing: 12%
Navigation Error (Grounding): 10%
Boat Construction (Hull Split Open): 6%
Leaks at Outdrive Boots: 4%
Struck Floating Debris: 4%
Other: 4%

Two of these don't even apply to outboard boats (raw water cooling leaks and outdrive boot leaks), but account for 16 percent of the sample that sunk. That would be 8 boats out of the 50 that sunk for something that doesn't affect outboards. However, once again without knowing the whole story about the sample group the data isn't useful. For example we don't know what percentage of the sample were outboard, I/O, PWC, sailboat, 15 foot, 30 foot, whatever. If the sample happened to have 40 outboards in it then one would expect the data to be skewed against outboards. I'm not saying the sample was skewed, but without knowing the details we can't judge that aspect.

The data was also for claims for boats that had sunk. I would argue that the well designed outboards didn't sink and are therefore not even in the sample. What you would really need to judge this is a statistical study of hours of operation per sinking of both outboards and I/O's. That study would also need to differentiate the size of the boats.

What the article didn?t mentioned is that the number of outboard powered boats number I/O by a factor of 4.5 to 1 according to lasted NMMA figures.

In order to even out the probably of one of those accident happening to a particular market segment you need to divide the outboard incidents by 4.5 and multiple the I/O incidence by 4.5

Therefore the 11 reported outboard swamping makes the probably of your outboard swamping at 2.4 occurrences per units sold.

One the other hand, the 8 boats that sunk because of raw water leaks and leaking bellows comes out to 36 units per units sold.

It seems to me that statically, you?re almost 18 times more likely to sink from a raw water or bellows leaking on an I/O than you are swamping an outboard. ;):D
 

high'n'dry

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jul 10, 2008
Messages
156
Re: Why go with an I/O?

45Auto give it up. The smilies in your post don't help. The tone of your last few posts is condescending and not appropriate.

I apologize to 45Auto for being dismissive of his excellent points. He has a point of view and some valid concerns. Thank you for pointing these things out so that there is a balanced discussion.
 

45Auto

Commander
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May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Why go with an I/O?

I apologize to 45Auto for being dismissive of his excellent points. He has a point of view and some valid concerns. Thank you for pointing these things out so that there is a balanced discussion.

You don't have to apologize to me, high'n'dry! This is the internet, anybody can type anything they want whether it's correct or not! Doesn't bother me any, dismiss away, I'm just here when I'm bored and have time to waste anyhow! I like to see all the viewpoints in a discussion. :)

I've been told that I have a rather sarcastic style of communication (but what do they know?) that doesn't come across very well on the internet sometimes. Sorry if I offended you.

The tone of your last few posts is condescending and not appropriate.

I'll be sure to report myself to the tone police. Should I change my plaid shirt and striped pants before I do so I don't also offend the style police? :D
 

45Auto

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Messages
2,842
Re: Why go with an I/O?

What the article didn?t mentioned is that the number of outboard powered boats number I/O by a factor of 4.5 to 1 according to lasted NMMA figures.

Must be a lot more I/O's out there than I thought. I would have figured the number of outboards to I/O's would have been around 40 or 50 to 1. Not too many I/O's with less than 120 HP, but there must be a zillion smaller OB's out there. Would be interesting to see the stats for number of OB's over 120 HP compared to the number of I/O's.
 

45Auto

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Messages
2,842
Re: Why go with an I/O?

One the other hand, the 8 boats that sunk because of raw water leaks and leaking bellows comes out to 36 units per units sold.

So according to the dingbat statistical method, for every I/O sold then 36 sink???? :eek:

How are there even any on top of the water!!!

No wonder they're so popular, the manufacturer's are making a killing!

See how stimulating this discussion is!
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
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Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,503
Re: Why go with an I/O?

So according to the dingbat statistical method, for every I/O sold then 36 sink???? :eek:

How are there even any on top of the water!!!

No wonder they're so popular, the manufacturer's are making a killing!

See how stimulating this discussion is!

Note, "Per units sold". Units could be in 100s, 1,000s, or even 1,000,000 actual units.

48% of all boats in use were outboards.
SOURCE: USCG/NMMA

Real numbers from 2006:
8.53 million outboard powered boats
1.72 million I/O powered boats
1.12 million Inboard powered boats

Figures from 2006:
Outboard number of units sold: 217,800
Retail value: $2,195,859,600
Avg cost per unit: $10,144

I/O number of units sold: 72,000
Retail value: $2,217,723,000
Avg cost per unit: $30,802

The boating industry is making a killing on the who's back? Seems they can make a 1/3 of the number of I/Os and be more profitable doing it. The boat industry opening admits using I/O power to reduce the cost for entry level boating but to who's advantage?
 

high'n'dry

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
156
Re: Why go with an I/O?

A surfboard has no freeboard nor transom, yet they are unsinkable. A boat built using the same concept, filled to the gunwale cap with foam, self bailing and no place for water to collect is equally unsinkable.

Pull the plug on a boat, load it to capacity and put it in the water, if an hour later it is still on top, good boat, if it fills with water and rolls over, bad boat. Then get a water hose, put it in the boat and turn it on, if the boat is still afloat another hour latter, really good boat.

The article linked by 45auto has a few good warnings, one of them is to never anchor off the stern. This is what cost the lives of the three NFL players out of Tampa. They had a stuck anchor, the skipper had lost an anchor a few days before and did not want to loose another. In an effort to break it free, he tied it from the stern so as to pull it with his engines despite there being heavy sea conditions. The forward thrust of the engine, the downward pull of the anchor and the seas coming over the stern along with the asymmetric pull of the anchor rolled the boat over. Three millionaires on a 21 foot boat, two drowned, over a 30 dollars anchor!

Only in the best conditions anchor from the stern, I have seen small boats sucked under in tidal channels that were stern anchored and loaded with gear and people. This is not the same of course as tying stern in on a beach or bar.
 

diesel5599

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
169
Re: Why go with an I/O?

It looks like this thread mainly leans towards I/O's but my 2cents worth is I have had 4 boats, all I/Os and everytime I break down I swear I will never own another I/O. I 100% agree with the poster's that said women hate OBs, every time I was ready to buy a boat, I was with a woman that said OBs were ugly, and where are they supposed to tan, etc etc. This time I am buying for myself. I have never owned an OB, and maybe in a few more years I'll be cussing OBs and going back to I/O's, but below are the problems I have run into:

1) Whatever you do, never forget to take the drain cap out once you have your boat on the trailer. In my 8yrs of boating I forgot once on two different boats. You might as well replace the starter, and trim electronics the same day, because they will fail within a few months. What happens is the boat fills with water when it rains and the starter and trim motor go underwater; ruins them every time. OBs do not have this problem since the entire engine is out of the boat.

2) I/O's make really poor shallow water fishing boats. I can never get into the flats to catch bait fish with my I/O. This makes sense since it is not a fishing boat, so its my own fault for using it for something it wasn't meant for. OBs can be purchased with jack plates which let you float in almost anything (depending on the size of the boat of course).

3) The one thing I love about my I/O is that I can get all of the engine parts from any car store, pay half the price of their marine equivalents, and use their lifetime warranty to keep replacing them as they break. Good luck doing that with an OB.

4) The gas tank size seems to suck for an I/O vs an OB. Once again, I want to go offshore fishing but only have a 50 gal tank, equivalent OBs seem to have 150 gal tanks.

5) I/O's are very inefficient at power transfer. due to the drivetrain having to handle two 90 degree bends, you get much higher drivetrain losses out of an I/O than a OB. So a 260HP rated I/O will probably put out less than 170HP at the prop vs a 260HP OB which is probably closer to 210HP at the prop; this also explains why OBs with less HP are usually faster than I/O's with more HP.

6) You will get what initially appears to be a lot more boat and a lot more engine with an I/O but you learn over time you get what you pay for. You aren't actually getting a lot more engine see problem number 5 above. And you also aren't actually getting a lot more boat; most I/Os are mated to boats that are meant to look good not last long. I've had windshields come lose, handles break off, cuddy's come lose, and everything else you can imagine when hitting the waves in an I/O powered boat. Sure I got more feet for my $$, but who cares about footage and how many cushions your boat has, if the boat breaks apart on the way back? Give me a few less feet, a few less cushions, an OB mated to a quality boat maker and I'll head out 50 miles offshore to catch that big grouper.

7) I don't know about maintenance for an OB yet, but for an I/O in saltwater you have to change the risers and elbows every 2yrs / 100hrs. That's a $2K job if you let a mechanic do it. I tried going just 40hrs too long, and the boat overheated, broke down, and had to be towed in. And I flush my boat religiously after running it, still did not matter.

Conclusion: I boat in FL saltwater and trailer my boat so its out of the water when I'm not using it. My main focus (from now on) will be fishing. Based on my own personal yrs of observation down here in FL, I've concluded that for here in FL OBs are better for fishing, they are all that people here use when their lives and jobs depend on it (USCG small boats are all OB, so are all the cops boats, and so are all the TowBoatUS boats, not one that I've seen has an I/O), but I/Os are all you see along the beaches when impressing the ladies is more important.
 

NCLakeboater

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
117
Re: Why go with an I/O?

If you want to extend your boating season when the weather starts getting cold, there's no question an outboard has an advantage there.
 
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