2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
1,200
Good day,

At driving distance to where I live one great big fishing lake will prohibit (aug 2007) usage of 2 cycle OB built prior to 2004. I would like to inform the decision makers of that community of certain mesures that could lead to changing their decision.

Long debated Amsoil 100:1 Saber oil is one solution to less water polution ... but my question is: are there some bio-degradable 2 cycle oils out there ??

I read Shell has one available in some overseas countries ... but not available here. Was also told by an Amsoil dealer that they had one (bio) on the shelft ..

We 2 cycle OB's owners have to find a polution reduction solution asap.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,758
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

Are you sure the mandate didn't say "carbureted" two strokes? The current Evinrude E-tec is a two stroke and is cleaner than most four-strokes. Read the madate carefully.
 

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Jun 9, 2006
Messages
1,200
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

Are you sure the mandate didn't say "carbureted" two strokes? The current Evinrude E-tec is a two stroke and is cleaner than most four-strokes. Read the madate carefully.

It just says 'OB,s built prior to 2004'
 

Chris1956

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
27,036
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

One of the problems with a carb or EFI 2 cycle motor is the unburned gas and hydrocarbons that they emit, in addition to the unburned oil. A biodegradeable 2 cycle oil is a start, but likely insufficiant to fix the pollution issue.

Normally (not in California, of course), they will slowly phase out the older motors, without actually banning them on a particular day.
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

The unburned fuel old 2 strokes put out is the reason NOT so much the OIL


Tommays
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,417
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

Better find some biodegradable gasoline while you?re at it. At a 50:1 fuel to oil ratio your spitting out 50 times more fuel than oil into the water.
 

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Jun 9, 2006
Messages
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Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

The unburned fuel old 2 strokes put out is the reason NOT so much the OIL


Tommays

I thought it was the unburned oil residues !! Guess I was wrong ...

Makes sense since if unburned oil comes out of the exhaust there has to be some unburned gas also.

Then does this mean the solution would lie in using hotter plugs and/or having the OB motors run hotter ?

Just a tought ...

As far as 2 cycle oil is concerned there is not a drop of oily/gas product leaving my OB's in the water ever since I use synthetic 2 cycle oil with medium grade gasoline.

Is it the higher test gasoline ?? or the synthetic oil ?? donno ...

Cheers
 

jeeperman

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
1,513
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

As far as 2 cycle oil is concerned there is not a drop of oily/gas product leaving my OB's in the water ever since I use synthetic 2 cycle oil with medium grade gasoline.

Is it the higher test gasoline ?? or the synthetic oil ?? donno ...

Cheers

Where do you get that idea?
Your outboard and any other outboard no matter the type is only efficient up to a certain percentage of 100%.
But NONE are 100% efficient.
You would need to add an afterburner catalytic converter to burn off the the unused oil and fuel after it leaves the cylinders.

There is no magic-in-a-bottle or jug that will give any engine 100% fuel efficency.
 

hitace

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
390
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

it seems more and more lakes are doing this.sounds like outboard company's are paying the EPA to make these laws so old 2 stroke owners come crawling back and force to buy a new outboard.thats just a wild theory.i Ben to one of those lakes before i just bought some etec decals for my old carb 2 stroke and they never botherd me i consider my self lucky tho its kinda hard to miss all the smoke coming from it when starting it up.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
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Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,417
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

it seems more and more lakes are doing this.sounds like outboard company's are paying the EPA to make these laws so old 2 stroke owners come crawling back and force to buy a new outboard.thats just a wild theory.

How about the EPA put new emissions regulations in effect that forced the outboard manufacturers to make the jump to 4 stroke because existing 2 stroke technology couldn't meet the new regulations.

In 1990 a provision was added to the Clean Air Act (CAA) authorizing the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to regulate ?non-road vehicles?. Marine outboard motors and personal water craft (PWC) were included in this category. In 1996, the EPA Final Rule was written for New Gasoline Spark-Ignition Marine Engines, regulating marine outboard engines and PWC?s. ?The Final Rule is promulgated pursuant to EPA?s authority under Section 213(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act.?1 The rule later recognizes, ?In selecting emission standards for new non-road engines, section 213(a)(3) directs EPA to establish the greatest degree of emission reduction achievable through the application of technology, giving appropriate consideration to the cost of applying such technology within the period of time available to manufacturers.?2

The ?Final Rule? mandates a hydrocarbon emission reduction of 75% by 2006 on all new outboards and PWC?s.
 

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
1,200
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

Where do you get that idea?
Your outboard and any other outboard no matter the type is only efficient up to a certain percentage of 100%.
But NONE are 100% efficient.
You would need to add an afterburner catalytic converter to burn off the the unused oil and fuel after it leaves the cylinders.

There is no magic-in-a-bottle or jug that will give any engine 100% fuel efficency.


I beleve what you are saying, and I was not aiming at 100% effeciency results. Nevertheless just for fun ... and based on 100% clean exhaust output ... how could we establish a close to real polution ratio via an OB exhaust ?

Let say: 2 cycle = ??? % clean (or poluted)
4 cycle = ??? %

Just to see how they compare in the eye of 2 cycle OB lovers.

Cheers,
 

WillyBWright

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
8,200
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

Nearly a third of gas/oil and air passes straight from intake to exhaust and out into the water at low RPMs in a conventional 2-stroke. Direct Fuel Injected 2-strokes shoot the gas/oil into the cylinder after the intake and exhaust ports are closed. The nearly-a-third is just air without the gas/oil. There is nothing that can be done to a conventional 2-stroke to make them run clean at low RPMs, or the manufacturers wouldn't have spent gazillions of dollars developing DFIs. Get an electric, a 4-stroke, or a DFI 2-stroke, or find someplace else to go. You're not going to change their minds. Yamaha calls their DFIs HPDI. Mercury calls theirs OptiMax. Evinrude/Johnson calls theirs Ficht or E-tec. Not sure about the others. DFI 2-strokes are cleaner and more powerful per pound than 4-strokes (generally speaking). If you get one, you'll never look back. :)
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,758
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

As I said previously, you need to spend some time reading about Evinrudes E-tec. It's cleaner just as fuel efficient as most four strokes and better than many.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

For quite a few years now Johnson and Evinrude have sold a biodegradable synthetic oil. Originally it was called OMC Biodegradable Oil and now is known as XD-100.
 

Chris1956

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
27,036
Re: 2 cycle prohibition vs Bio-degradable oil

Willie's description of how the unburned fuel passes into the waterway is esentially correct. There are some subtle details that were left out. A conventional two cycle motor does burn all or nearly all of the fuel in the combustion chamber. It is the exhaust scavanging that causes the polution.

In a conventional carb or EFI two cycle motor(loop charge or cross flow), the fresh fuel charge in the crankcase is compressed on the piston downstroke. This charge is forced through the transfer ports and pushes the exhaust out the exhaust port. However, in order to get rid of all the exhaust, some of the fresh fuel is necessarily expelled out the exhaust port. This is what causes the pollution. On a DFI motor, only air and oil are compressed in the crankcase. Only air and some oil goes thru the transfer ports and pushes out the exhaust, thereby lowering the pollution. Gasoline is injected into the combustion chamber after the exhaust port has closed.

There are methods to lower the pollution on the conventional 2 cycle motors, (better loop charging, expansion chambers...), but they are especially hard to do on multi-cylinder motors, and are not as effective as DFI.
 
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