Your opinion please on a first boat, cheap one or spend more?

[Wave34]

Hello boaters,
I will start searching for a small cruiser in the following months. I've never owned a boat before, but know people who does. Since I'm in my 50s, I want to choose the good one and not have to change because I won't have time, maybe, before retirement (less income).

I see many models, prices etc.

Right now, a work colleague offered me his 1999 Bayliner Cierra 2355, Merc 5.7, Alpha 1 with close to 900 hrs on it for $15000. What I like on his boat is the AFT cabin, but I don't like the fact that the engine is carburated, and the dated look of the seats and some other things.

On the other hand, a friend bought 3 years ago a 2004 Chaparral Signature 260, Merc 5.7, Bravo 3, injection, and a better aesthetic, but I don't think he has a AFT cabin. His boat is a lot nicer, BUT he paid $40000.

That's a lot of money between the two boats. Do a twin propeller (better gas economy) and some luxury worth $25000?
Even if I spend $1000 more in gas in a year for the single prop and carb boat and I invest in seat covers, I will still be far from the $25000, but it will still be carburated.

I can spend the $35000 or so, if needed, it's just that if it's not required I prefer not (other hobbies).

Also in maybe 10 years, if I want to sell, does the $15000 boat loose less because it is already at the bottom of the depreciation chart, or the $40000 boat will be the one that will depreciate the most, or maybe not because it is a better quality and sought after boat?

What would you guys do?

Thank you.

 

[Scott Danforth]

First, welcome aboard...

Regarding your desire to jump into boating, you have come to the right place.

Regarding your choice of a first boat.....Stop....

For a first boat, go aluminum with an outboard. One you have the hang of boating and learned what not to do the hard way, then sell and upgrade

Jumping into a pocket cruiser from day one is like buying a semi as your first car and not knowing how to drive. Boating is a learning hobby, first sratr with basics

Stay away from bayliners older than 10 years old, especially from the 80's and 90's. The build quality really isnt there and most need a full restoration

Read a lot of the restoration threads in the hull and restoration forums to understand what happens to boats

Any boat that needs " seat covers" has other more pressing issues. That is a sign of neglect and most likely the boat needs a full restoration

Boats have a design life of 15-20 years. Buring a boat that old needs to be looked at as a project

If you want economy in a boat, get one with sails or oars. Boats get horrible fuel economy.

After 10 years, the boat value will be lower. Boat depreciation is a cliff.

Boating is almost the worlds most expensive hobby. Its more expensive than racing and almost as expensive as owning an airplane.


For first time boaters, i recommend first take a boaters safety course, then boat with friends that boat regularly....then rent a boat from places like freedom boat club

 

[Lowlysubaruguy]

Unless your planning on ocean voyages or really rough water type boating id stick to an 18 to 20 foot boat for your first go round, bigger than that not only will you need more help with everything from the launch, just driving it down the road and backing it into your drive way can be a challenge at first, to the extra care and costs of bigger boats which seam to quadruplify with every foot you ad above 20 feet.

You’ll find yourself in the water more often and figuring out if you want a bigger boat more if its easier to put in by yourself. Is also I think 17 foot is to small for groups and overall boating activities in a lot of cases. I have had a lot of friends with 17 foot or smaller boats that gave up on boats and hitched rides with me some that bought bigger but most of my friends ok none of my friends still have boats smaller than 18 feet.

And if you have a $15k to $40K buget youll either find a very good boat or have some spare change.

Ill make a statement that holds true to just about everything. You can over pay for a good boat ( or what ever) and have no regrets and underpay for the wrong or bad boat ( or what ever) and have lots of regrets. Get what ever you plan to buy inspected before you buy. Im in the auto repair business my biggest repair orders day in and day out are on vehicles bought without inspections. Dont forget to have your trailer checked to. And get insurance on it before you drive it off the lot just a thought that you might bypass if you get the im buying a boat jitters and forget.

And if you find boating is for you and you can move up from your first purchase great. If not its easier to walk away from the price you paid on most smaller boats than a bigger boat at least usually.

 

[jimmbo]

I have to agree with Scott about the late 80s thru 90s bayliners. Chaparral was a decent boat in those years.
Myself I prefer carbs, easy to trouble shoot, and offer an easy way to increase performance. Can make more power than a fuelie.
I also agree a boat is a hole in the water that you will be money into.
As for the right size, well depending on what you are going to use it for. Cruising the lake is nicer in a 21 footer than a 17, but a 17 is a better choice for most water sports,(smaller wake).
My first 2 boats were 15 footers(still by favorite boat), the next was a 17ft, They were all outboard runabouts, the last has been a 18 1/2 I/O open bow. I guess I suffered from 2 footillitis

The duo Props like the Bravo 3 do have some advantages. more efficient thus better economy. The down side is Twice the cost when you need replace them and 2 props that need repairs, and your choice of props is very limited

As regarding retirement. If you can retire before 60, all the more to you. I had to wait till Freedom 56, and that was 2 yrs ago. Everyday is Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Sagerider]

I retired in July of 2016 and bought my used 2004 16.5 foot aluminum Lowe Sea Nymph in July of 2017 for $7,500 out the door. With it came a 2005 Evinrude 75 etec and an 8 hp Honda kicker, took it out once then tore it apart. The live well leaked badly from a poorly installed top rim seal from the factory, the deck ply was delaminating and the carpet was on it’s last legs. I basically bought two motors and got a free boat. I did know what I was getting into when I bought it. Being an optimist I figured it would be an easy fixer upper, not so much it turned out. The details are killers and take a tremendous amount of time if your as detail oriented as I am. I like nice things and my boat is going to be very nice when it is finished better than new nice.
i worked on it all summer every day as in 7 days a week no less than 8 hours a day most days. I really enjoy working with my hands and mind so for me it was huge fun and very satisfying as day by day progress was made. I used 5/8 inch Okoume marine plywood to replace the pressure treated 3/8 inch plywood and fiberglassed it all top and bottom. The carpet I used was 20 pile which is thick enough to hide screw heads but not too thick, perfect actually. I replaced the live well seal and replaced and repaired everything that needed it. Hatches were reworked so the edges would not roll up with years of use. The main deck was replaced with a single sheet, fiberglassed top and bottom with two coats of non slip gelcoat on top of the fiberglass for a durable easy to clean surface. A bunch of time and effort all by myself and another 5k at least. If you were to find a new boat put together like this boat you could not afford it and neither could I. Boats are put together to meet production costs, mass production and cutting corners is how they make them affordable for the common man.

If you buy a used boat you are taking a risk, a big risk. Fiberglass boats can have hidden problems that will make you regret you ever thought about getting a boat. Things like a rotted transom, rotted stringers, waterlogged floatation foam, cracks and delaminated fiberglass. Aluminum boats have there own issues but for me it was the better choice, my before before life was that of a welder and I have a very nice little machine shop complete with a lath, milling machine, TIG welder and I know how to use them. I can pretty much make anything out of aluminum I can think of. From day one any boat, car or what have you begins to degrade, slow at first then faster as time goes on.

What do you want to do with your boat? #1 question
i want to be out on the water and fish for walleye and northern pike until I turn to dust but I wanted to do it in a very nice just my size boat without spending 50 or 60 K for it because I don’t have that kind of money flowing through anymore. If I had thought about it before I retired I could have done it no problem. With a limited fixed income that free wheeling devil may care wiping my *** with hundred dollar bills life style is over along with all the stress thank God.

if you get a new one you can have it paid off before you retire and get exactly what you want so think about that. The last thing you need after you retire is a huge payment due every month on a boat. I owe nothing on my boat so it is pay as I go and right now it is almost complete. It will be a boat I will be proud of and enjoy for many years to come God willing.

i will try to down size some resent photos and post them up.

this is what it looked like when I bought it though.

 

[Sagerider]

This is The Boat as she sits now, almost complete.

 

[Wave34]

Thanks for the replies.
A couple of things I forgot to say.

The purpose of the boat will be for me and my wife, and maybe sometime my daughter and boyfriend, to go on weekend trips, or longer if only my wife and I. So, a comfortable cabin is a must, that's what brought me to think a cruiser would be better. I looked at cuddy cabin boats, I like their sporty feeling etc, but the cabin is a bit too cramped for more than a night.
I will do rivers and big lakes, but won't venture if the waves are too high.

jimmbo, no I'm not retiring before 60. I'm 55 so I have 5 years to buy, repair, customise... the future boat.

I understand the bigger the boat, the harder it is to learn how to pilot especially in tight spaces. But like I said, I need a cabin and don't have time to grow in boat sizes before my retirement.
But I don't stress about that too much. I'm the kind of guy that will take a day off (or more) during the week to go and try things with the boat when there is nobody at the marina. Usually, anything with a steering wheel is exiting to me and I like to learn and practice to master it.

I know about the dry rot, and the problem finding a competent surveyor. That is the most stressful part of the buying experience for me. I have a friend who bought 3 fiberglass boats in his life, so I will ask him the name of his surveyor and if he can give me some tips on a pre-purchase.

I know that boating is an expensive hobby. But I'm good with wrenches (I always had modified cars, and racecar), and I have a well equipped garage, so that means I have to pay for the parts only, so the cost should be less than half of having the work done in a shop, I hope LOL.
Fuel is expensive, especially here in Canada, but I don't plan on cruising the whole day. I will stop to eat, swim, relax, take a beer, a couple of times during the day, so the average fuel consumption should lower because of that.

My goal was to start slow and quiet, locally with my wife.
When I told my friend I started to look for a boat, he was so happy, he invited me with his other friends, (all have cruisers), to go with them next summer on a trip on some nice clear water lakes.
I will have to ask him to wait a bit to give me time to know the boat and fix all the quirks.

 

[Wave34]

Sagerider, it is a nice restoration you did. I believe you that it is a lot of hours.
But now you have the pride of your work, and know it is well done.

 

[JoLin]

<deleted>

 

[Scott Danforth]

you dont need a cabin, you want a cabin.

for your needs, a small dual council with a head would suffice

until you master boating, I do not recommend jumping into over-nighting. that is how you make the news and search partys are required.

by mastering, I mean staying anchored out in 4' seas during a storm with heavy winds, etc. backing into slips in a current with wind, operating in fog, etc. these are all things that come on quickly when your on the water, and can be deadly over-night.

you say you dont have time to grow in sizes and want to jump in. I say, start by taking the boaters safety course and start renting boats, and learn that way.

as an FYI there is no such thing as dryrot. it is rot that somehow sat long enough to dry. dryrot is a misnomer. sort of like freeze plugs. (they are core plugs)

https://forums.iboats.com/forum/boa...52-perspective-of-fiberglass-boat-design-life

 

[Chris1956]

Gee, my 50 years experience boating indicate that complex boats need more maintenance, and are harder to learn on, than simple ones. That is, boats with accessories, wiring to support those, galleys, heads, electronics, complex propulsion systems, etc, are more maintenance-needy than simpler boats. Remember, fiberglass is pretty much maintenance-free (other than bottom paint). Also, I/Os need far more maintenance than OBs.

In your case, the cruiser you are thinking about will have a Mercruiser sterndrive, lots of wiring and gauges, and several nice-to-have accessories. Since it is older, it will likely need lots of TLC to start with and a large amount of maintenance to keep her going.

So, to answer your question...I would choose a boat with a single outboard powerplant, the minimum gauge set, minimal accessories (you may need GPS and sonar), and minimal features. Stick with what you need. It is simpler to learn a simpler boat, and a simpler boat is more enjoyable on the water, IMO. You can still get a mid-20s cuddy, and maybe even a cruiser with those attributes.

Experience tells that the engine alone will need much more preventative and restorative maintenance than an OB. I figured it out one time, and it was several hundreds in parts, on average (my labor was free), more per year than an OB.

Just my .02

 

[southkogs]

I think you can learn to boat on a big boat, but I'm confident it will be a more expensive and difficult "learning." I agree with the gang that starting with something under 22' (even a cuddy) would be better for a year or two.

AND ... for the cabin boat, rent one a couple of times. It's actually the reason that I have never bought one: I can rent when I need, where I need, for a fraction of the cost of ownership. Then in a year or three you'll know better what kind of cabin boat you wanna' spend your money on.

:welcome:

 

[Chigwalla]

Heya, fellow Canuck (west coast)

I deleted a long-winded post because I can't really add anything to the great advice here, especially to get something small until you learn how to run a boat.
You'll be offering exactly the same advice down the road.

Does your time and budget allow for a tin boat for the next few years until you know what you want in a bigger boat ?
If you go that route, it absolutely, positively will affect what you buy as the 'big' boat.

I have (wealthy) customers with 28 & 30' first boats: I could never afford to learn that way.
Having to replace a drive because of a dumb mistake often knocks people completely out of boating without anything to show for it.

 

[Old Ironmaker]

I have a slip at a local marina for my small 19' tinny on Lake Erie in Ontario. 90% are Cuddy's and smaller cruisers up to 30 feet. This is a working mans marina, most are retired as am I. 95% or more of those cruisers never leave their slips for a number of reasons. The first is fuel costs, the second is too much boat, the third being that day trips and overnighters aren't what they thought it would be. The romance of day and overnight trips wane quickly after a boater gets caught in bad weather that wasn't predicted as well as trying to cram their boat into a tight slip at a unfamiliar marina to stop overnight, for fuel and or a bite to eat. I know one guy personally that jumped right into a 23' Cuddy that never owned a boat before, both he and his wife get seas sick, plus the Mrs. found out she has claustrophobia, that boat didn't leave the slip for 2 years now it doesn't leave their driveway. I also know boaters that can't stand overnighting because your neighbour on each side is only the width of the walkway from you. Anchoring in a bay sure sounds nice, after 6 hours in a boat many need to get their land legs back, I do. It is a physical thing, constant rocking and swaying gets our equilibrium out of whack. Some take years to adjust to it, some never. That is 1 reason starting out smaller helps, not just for expertise in piloting a rig. When docked overnight often your neighbour can hear almost every word spoken on your boat and vice versa, sometimes snoring included. I often ask guys that want a small cruiser as a first boat, "Can you spend time together in a 7'X15' room for a few days? Many folks can, I know I can't.Please consider renting before jumping into something as your 1st boat you think you will enjoy. Bayliners of that era are something to pass on.

edit: I have to add for even a Cuddy for a 1st time boater you won't be trailering it to and from the water for every trip, you will need to get a slip another expense many don't consider as rookies, around here there are waiting lists. That I know for sure based on your age and inexperience.

I wish you good luck in your search for a boat for your family and yourself.

 

[Sagerider]

Ok, now I got a good idea of what your looking for. Of course there is a story coming now, I got a lot of stories.

I had a friend co-worker that bought a BIG boat, maybe even his first boat at around 40-50 foot range. He hired a guy to help him learn how to handle it, great idea. I went out to visit with another friend and co-worker and got to watch the learning how to back into a slip lesson. All went well with lots of helping hands but one thing I will remember is it was far from easy even with all the extra help. Big boats have lots of momentum even moving very slowly. It took some time for my friend to get use to dealing with a Battle Star Galactica sized boat but he pulled it off after lots of practice. Life was wonderful and then he was diagnosed with lung cancer, very advanced with little hope. He put up a hard fight but it took him out in short order. The time he had with his big baby and wife was truly golden even though much too short. My friend worked hard all his life and made a great career for himself but never got to retire to laze about in his well earned golden nest. He was so happy for even that short time with his boat and used it at every opportunity.

The moral to the story is this is your life, the only one you get how ever long it may last.

You sound like you have your head in the right place and having someone who is very knowledgeable/professional check out any prospect boat before you buy is excellent! Take every opportunity to learn and challenge yourself to fill your life with golden nuggets. Don’t let nay sayers rain on your parade, it is your life not theirs.Use every opportunity to learn what you don’t know and seek out advice from your big boat owning friends.

My expeirence with taking big steps into dark unknown territory is not unprecedented. I have been a motorcycle nut my whole life and after some many years of riding dirt bikes I bought a Yamaha R1, a 1,000 cc monster, the cream of the Japanese super bikes at the time. I signed up for a track day with The North Eastern Sport Bike Association at Virginia International Raceway one day. While waiting in line in the hot pit with my leathers, helmet, gloves and boots looking to all the world that I knew what I was doing I did not have a clue. As engines reved and screemed in excitement the moths in my stomach were screaming to my brain, “what have you gotten yourself into now”. Well the rest is history and I had the most exciting wonderful time of my life for the next ten years. I met and became friends with some of the craziest most wonderful people you could ever imagine all over the country. My work involved a lot of travel all over America and the world with every opportunity taken to bring my now multipul collection of motorcycles with me. I still have my now four Ducati super bikes, a 916, a 999r and two identical 1098s, a guy needs a back up bike in case you crash one. All are meticulously maintained and modified with state of the art suspension and geometry upgrades and in pristine condition, I own a museum. Too old now at almost 69 my road racing days are over but I still have my bikes, pictures and memories that will always remind me of a challenge accepted. The realm of adventure is the place for hero’s and fools, be a hero.

 

[BWR1953]

I have a slip at a local marina for my small 19' tinny on Lake Erie in Ontario. 90% are Cuddy's and smaller cruisers up to 30 feet. This is a working mans marina, most are retired as am I. 95% or more of those cruisers never leave their slips for a number of reasons. The first is fuel costs, the second is too much boat, the third being that day trips and overnighters aren't what they thought it would be. The romance of day and overnight trips wane quickly after a boater gets caught in bad weather that wasn't predicted as well as trying to cram their boat into a tight slip at a unfamiliar marina to stop overnight, for fuel and or a bite to eat. I know one guy personally that jumped right into a 23' Cuddy that never owned a boat before, both he and his wife get seas sick, plus the Mrs. found out she has claustrophobia, that boat didn't leave the slip for 2 years now it doesn't leave their driveway. I also know boaters that can't stand overnighting because your neighbour on each side is only the width of the walkway from you. Anchoring in a bay sure sounds nice, after 6 hours in a boat many need to get their land legs back, I do. It is a physical thing, constant rocking and swaying gets our equilibrium out of whack. Some take years to adjust to it, some never. That is 1 reason starting out smaller helps, not just for expertise in piloting a rig. When docked overnight often your neighbour can hear almost every word spoken on your boat and vice versa, sometimes snoring included. I often ask guys that want a small cruiser as a first boat, "Can you spend time together in a 7'X15' room for a few days? Many folks can, I know I can't.Please consider renting before jumping into something as your 1st boat you think you will enjoy. Bayliners of that era are something to pass on.

edit: I have to add for even a Cuddy for a 1st time boater you won't be trailering it to and from the water for every trip, you will need to get a slip another expense many don't consider as rookies, around here there are waiting lists. That I know for sure based on your age and inexperience.

I wish you good luck in your search for a boat for your family and yourself.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

PLUS all the stuff that others have said.

I'm married to a Filipina who grew up fairly well off. Her family owned 6 boats and she loves fishing. So when we bought our 16' Starcraft Kingfisher in 2015 and refurb'd it a bit to get it on the water, I expected her and the boy to be thrilled. I was wrong. They hated being in the boat and preferred to fish from the shore. I'm STILL dealing with that issue almost 3 years later!

Her Filipino boats had outriggers to keep them stable. The rocking and tipping motions of our KF on the water bugged her and the boy and she told me the day after the first trip out that she wanted to get rid of the boat. And she STILL does!

People with little to no boating experience often find that it's just not for them. Spending a bunch on something "unknown" right away isn't necessarily the way to go. Just my $0.02.

Filipino boat. Big, stabilized boat.



Our Kingfisher. Open fishing boat.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Chris1956 brings up a good point. on a small boat, estimate an hour of clean-up and maintenance every time you go out. on a pocket cruiser, that jumps to 3 hours.

if the boat is slipped, this is putting everything away, removing or storing electronics, servicing the head, checking the fluids, securing the spring lines, zipping up the canvas, etc.

if the boat is trailered, this is putting everything away, removing or storing electronics, securing everything that may blow out or get damaged by trailering, servicing the head, checking the fluids, pulling the plugs, securing the boat to the trailer, etc.

Old Ironmaker brings up the point that many find out they dont like boating after getting a boat.

as many boaters on the forums, most of us grew up from being knee-high to a spark plug on a boat. we all have learned what not to do the hard way. As southkogs points out, rent a cabin boat for a fraction of boat ownership

 

[Old Ironmaker]

@BRW1953. When we bought our StarCraft Superfisherman 190 I pictured beautiful day trips fishing, beaching and snorkeling in the crystal clear warm waters of Lake Erie, my wife loves all 3. After the second time my wife "helped" me launch it she told me I either got a parking spot or take someone else to launch it. She wouldn't drive the truck with the MT trailer on and stressed herself out tying the boat to the dock. The second time she lost hold of it and somehow it ended up stern to the bank on the opposite side of the dock. All while a bunch of boaters waiting to launch watched her laughing and never offered a hand. She was in tears. I gave them a blast I tell ya, ignoramuses. Now she won't go out on the boat at all, it's been 3 years after we got caught in 4 footers when we rounded the point to head back 5 miles to the Marina. It wasn't good I admit. That's the last time she has been in the boat. I have heard similar things from others. Not exactly my master plan.

You don't see those outriggers everyday, in fact I have never seen one east of Hawaii.

As far as trailering, if I'm heading out fishing I would add an additional 30 minutes to load the boat with all my weapons of mass distraction, putting a top up charge on the batteries plus stopping for ice and bait. Ice became so ridiculous, 3 bucks a bag, I went out and bought a fridge with an icemaker. My Lady said that was the best fishing money I ever spent. Closer to 2 hours depending on how many bleeding fish I catch. The last thing I want to do after all that "leisure" time is to come home and clean the boat and the fish. Sometimes I miss the little 14' tinny. It was cleaned at least once a year.

 

[Sagerider]

I got to see and witness first hand in 2005 at Laguna Seca California a real American hero and one of my all time personal favorites Nicky Hayden when he won the first Moto GP held here in the U.S.A. In many years. As he made his victory lap there was not a single person that was not jumping up and down cheering. As he circled the track tears were steaming down his face, what a sight to see. He went on to win the 2006 world championship against the best riders the world had to offer. Like gladiators these men will never really die as long as there are those like me that remember them. Nicky was taken out while riding his bicycle by a car, how ironic Rest In Peace Nicky.

By the way I am single and have been for a long time so no committees, no discussions and zero stress.

 

[tpenfield]

OK, my thoughts . . . and I have not read all of the replies in detail, so sorry for any redundancy.

Figure out what your budget is. . . $15K? $40K... or would it be more like $25-35K? That will put you in a realm of size and age that you can afford within your budget. figure that you will spend about 10% of that amount annually maintaining the boat. 'Cheap boats' can get very expensive if you buy a money pit.

Sleeping on a boat only looks like fun. Sleeping on small (22 - 26 foot) boats is even less fun than that. The first boat that the Admiral and I have slept on to any extent is 33 foot.

Fiberglass boats of 20+ years in age can have oodles of surprises, because the hull and deck are fiberglass, but much of the supporting structure is wood. So, you can run into moisture retention and rot issues with some older boats.

Boating is dangerous, so unless you have some decent experience or training, take a safe boating course.

Seldom to we find that our first choice in a boat lasts a long time. Often we get our sea legs and understand better through first hand experience what may be an even better boat. Also, our needs change as we progress through life and so do the boats.

Bayliners are an economy boat . . . they are kind of like the "Model T" of boating as they have allowed many people to get into boating that could not otherwise afford to. Boating is expensive.

My advice is to take your budget range and do a lot of looking at boats and talk to lots of people who you know that have boats. Take your time, look at lots of boats, don't dive into an empty swimming pool.