Would you have intervened?

[sublauxation]

Opinions needed as my wife scolded me for this. What would you do?

My office is in the Downtown Minneapolis skyway which is just a bunch of 2nd floor walkways through buildings and over the streets that links together a 25 square block area. It's filled with shops/restaurants/businesses and usually lots of people. In the winter it's also a hang out for low level opportunistic thugs who take anything they can get. In the later afternoon as the business people leave these "locals" can get a little rowdy so screaming isn't unusual. This afternoon a woman kept screaming so I went out to have a look. It turned out a thug had taken this woman's phone. He's a small sized, low level regular type thug I've encountered before. He's been a real problem the past couple weeks and the cops haven't been able to catch him. He didn't appear in the mood for anything physical. There were 5-6 other guys around but none seemed inclined to get directly involved. Cops were on the way but another 5 seconds and he would have been down the elevator and gone again. He wasn't agitated and didn't seem to be in the mood for a fight. I stepped in front of him to block the elevater and calmly explained that he was going nowhere. I never touched him but stayed close enough that he couldn't have easily pulled any weapon or made any quick movements without me being able to react as needed. Security was there 20 seconds later and he got hauled away.

He never made any threats and I never felt threatened. He has no history of violence in the area but these type people hang around an area and steal what they can until they're stopped. If one is successful more come. They've gotten probably $2K worth in the past weeks from our area. It's bad for everyone's business including mine.

My biggest mistake was forgetting the pepper spray. Would you have intervened?

 

[rogerwa]

Re: Would you have intervened?

What part of downtown was this? I have worked downtown for well over 20 years and know the habitrail very well. Sounds like you did the right thing. As you said, most of the sketchy people I see are regulars but i have not seen them do anything..

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Would you have intervened?

I probably would have even though I probably shouldn't. It's hard to fight the adrenalin in these cases.

Done a few things like that where later I thought about the the risk I had taken even if it was the "right" thing to do.

 

[akyla]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Opinions needed as my wife scolded me for this. What would you do?

My office is in the Downtown Minneapolis skyway which is just a bunch of 2nd floor walkways through buildings and over the streets that links together a 25 square block area. It's filled with shops/restaurants/businesses and usually lots of people. In the winter it's also a hang out for low level opportunistic thugs who take anything they can get. In the later afternoon as the business people leave these "locals" can get a little rowdy so screaming isn't unusual. This afternoon a woman kept screaming so I went out to have a look. It turned out a thug had taken this woman's phone. He's a small sized, low level regular type thug I've encountered before. He's been a real problem the past couple weeks and the cops haven't been able to catch him. He didn't appear in the mood for anything physical. There were 5-6 other guys around but none seemed inclined to get directly involved. Cops were on the way but another 5 seconds and he would have been down the elevator and gone again. He wasn't agitated and didn't seem to be in the mood for a fight. I stepped in front of him to block the elevater and calmly explained that he was going nowhere. I never touched him but stayed close enough that he couldn't have easily pulled any weapon or made any quick movements without me being able to react as needed. Security was there 20 seconds later and he got hauled away.

He never made any threats and I never felt threatened. He has no history of violence in the area but these type people hang around an area and steal what they can until they're stopped. If one is successful more come. They've gotten probably $2K worth in the past weeks from our area. It's bad for everyone's business including mine.

My biggest mistake was forgetting the pepper spray. Would you have intervened?

Today I helped police catch the thief. he was running down the street, I caught up with him by car, hit, police caught up with him at once and caught.

 

[sublauxation]

Re: Would you have intervened?

What part of downtown was this? I have worked downtown for well over 20 years and know the habitrail very well. Sounds like you did the right thing. As you said, most of the sketchy people I see are regulars but i have not seen them do anything..

Highland Bank Court, it's the back side of the US Bank building or the small building between the Macy's mens shoe department and LaSalle Plaza. It's been crazy over here the past couple weeks. I don't know if the story spread but late last week in the early afternoon some guy shot himself in LaSalle Plaza by the YMCA. There was a small jewelry store that opened in my building in November and right before Christmas in the later evening some thugs smashed the glass front and took everything. It's sad. My office used to be in the Hyatt and they preyed on the hotel guests almost daily. I was next to a jeweler there and he kept a cabinet of loaded 9mm mags. I was never sure if that made me feel safer or not:facepalm:

What area are you in?

 

[aspeck]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Would have done the same thing ...

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Yeah I would have, But that's my job....

Sheep on the other hand, well that is another story, I would not suggest to anyone that they get involved unless they are trained to do so, not these days, way to many people think nothing of harming another for no real reason at all.

Since it appears you have the Sheepdog mentality, I encourage you to get trained in self defense and prepare yourself accordingly, I will caution you though, you said you stayed close enough to keep the wolf from drawing a weapon, how do you know for sure? Have you ever trained for it?

I applaud you for doing the right thing, but please be careful, I would hate to hear that you got involved with some thug and got stabbed, or worse. If you plan on doing this again, get trained, always have the tools to answer an escalation of force, to include deadly force, you never know what a wolf is willing to do to commit crimes another day, today you just guessed right.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Would you have intervened?

You did the right thing however it was very dangerous. I am glad you forgot your pepper spray because w/o proper training you can cause collateral damage and the situation may have escalated. If that man had been pepper sprayed and pulled out a knife - he would have been stabbing and slashing blindly.

I agree with Lipp and get some self defense courses. Police officer's are trained in "control and restraint" but they normally have other methods to fall back on.

Law Enforcement really have a huge responsibility and creating a bigger scene and placing other people in harms way is bad. Most criminals want to flee and the absolute best things you can do are call 911 AND concentrate on a good description of the individual committing the crime.

Trust me (and ask anyone in Law Enforcement) that when the bad guy runs away......... he/she will commit another crime and get caught.

I had a close friend that used to teach people self defense for the everyday worker/commuter. I can tell you that a magazine (LOL who reads them anymore) rolled up is a great weapon of self defense.

If there is a high crime rate or even a small crime rate ....... one of the best things is to ask local law enforcement to assist with classes to teach ordinary people crime prevention, situation awareness and personal safety.

Oh to properly answer the question "Would you have intervened?" - yes

 

[JB]

Re: Would you have intervened?

I would have intervened as a knee-jerk reaction. If he had put up a fight . . . well, maybe others would have come to my rescue.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Would you have intervened?

I would have intervened as a knee-jerk reaction. If he had put up a fight . . . well, maybe others would have come to my rescue.

Ayuh,... Me too,.... Done it before, 'n most certainly will do it again,....

I may be on the smallish side, but I'm resourceful,...
There are "Things" all 'round Us that can become serious offensive, or defensive tools,...
A Fire Extinguisher comes to mind,....

They're everywhere, ya don't need to carry it, just be aware of where they're at,...
Offensively, it's a pretty good swingin' weapon,...
Defensively, a shot the the face will give any crackhead 2nd thoughts, no matter how high they are,...
The aggression usually stops when they can't breathe,...

Stoppin' crimes against other people, I believe, is the duty of All of Us,....

 

[tazrig]

Re: Would you have intervened?

I would have, but I'm an ex LEO. You have to be very careful in those situations because they can turn bad very quickly. I'm glad it went well for you and that you weren't hurt.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Not that I disagree with getting some training or being cautious - but unfortunately our society has become so overly (IMHO) cautious that the willing "sheepdogs" out there are busy doing their safety-harness-inspection-checklist while the coyote is bagging sheep.

Hats off to ya' Sublaxation. If more of us in the crowd would do what you did, the bad guys would start having trouble staying in business. Stay as safe as you can, but don't put up with the punks either.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Hats off to a good deed going well!! That said A CWP permit and the associated training and hardware can be a great back up plan.

 

[gm280]

Re: Would you have intervened?

I'm reasonably sure I would have done the same. WHY? Because we all hear all too often how somebody is being attacked and everybody stands around and watches without offering any assistance. While most cops will side with the "don't get involved" mentality, are we all becoming sitting ducks anymore? What if it was your wife being attacked? Wouldn't you want others to help her? We have to stop being victims and take these folks on. It only takes one to help out and others will assist... Of course it could have gone serious, but life is serious and not one person knows what is in store for them at any given time. But that should not stop decent folks with helping out others in need... JMHO!

 

[sublauxation]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Yeah I would have, But that's my job....

Sheep on the other hand, well that is another story, I would not suggest to anyone that they get involved unless they are trained to do so, not these days, way to many people think nothing of harming another for no real reason at all.

Since it appears you have the Sheepdog mentality, I encourage you to get trained in self defense and prepare yourself accordingly, I will caution you though, you said you stayed close enough to keep the wolf from drawing a weapon, how do you know for sure? Have you ever trained for it?

I applaud you for doing the right thing, but please be careful, I would hate to hear that you got involved with some thug and got stabbed, or worse. If you plan on doing this again, get trained, always have the tools to answer an escalation of force, to include deadly force, you never know what a wolf is willing to do to commit crimes another day, today you just guessed right.

I was more prepared this time. A couple years back on a more desolate street down here a 15-16 year old thug ran up from behind me and started punching the kid in front of me as he tried stealing the kid's stuff. At about 1/2 step away and ready to instinctively drop the dirt bag a voice behind me said, "you aint gonna call the cops are you". I turned around and there were 3 more of them. That could have been bad.

I approached this more slowly. He appeared to be acting alone and we had plenty of room to move around as needed. He had a tight jacket with zipped pockets and his pants were hanging low enough that he couldn't have reached those pockets quickly. When I stepped up to him he had his hands at his side and my first words to him were to not move them at all or this was going to a new level. Actually the whole thing remained pretty calm. Of course now the fear is the dirtbag will have a vendetta but being a small office in the corner I'm pretty well protected back here.

 

[kahuna123]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Its shameful to think grown men would stand by and watch. As a man, I mean a man, its your responsibility to defend helpless others regardless.

 

[agallant80]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Yes, its my community. The cops can be everywhere at once. They are mostly monday morning quarterbacks saying "you should have done xxx". There is however a fine line between looking out for your community and becoming Charles Bronson.

 

[Fleetwin]

Re: Would you have intervened?

Didn't a Mayoral Candidate for Minneapolis get the daylights beat out of him in a similar situation? I podcast Soucheray's show.

From what I gathered, the Candidate, had his cell phone stolen and two girls proceded to beat him up just for the kicks.

I also heard that there were as many as forty bystanders that did nothing.

 

[agallant80]

Re: Would you have intervened?

We need to watch out for each other in the community or else this will happen over and over again.
Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[britisher]

Re: Would you have intervened?

But you did intervene in a non-threatening manner and it worked. As you explained, the security personnel were on scene 20 seconds later and the cops arrived...when the cops arrived.
I think most people will ask themselves post anything like this, could I have done it differently. Using Pepper spray? I think all you would have done there is escalate things.
You didn't threaten the guy and obviously he didn't feel sufficiently threatened by your manner to react aggressively. I think you are to be commended for what you did and the non-violent outcome.
I am sure you could have pepper sprayed him, you could have beat the crap out of him with martial arts or you could have simply shot him, but I don't think any of those methods would win you any supporters..certainly not from me.
True, Law Enforcement are trained for ALL situations and all situations are different and should be treated as such. Sadly we see many situations where it has been shoot first, ask questions later.
Don't beat yourself up about what you did or second guess it. You did OK in my books.
What is the solution to the problem where your business is located? IMHO, the sensible solution would be for the business owners/tenants to come together and meet with the Security Company and Law Enforcement to clear up the mess you have to deal with on a daily basis.