why wont it go FASTER!!!

Philster

Captain
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
3,344
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Engine set closest to transom = slowest top speed.

Engines are not equal: a 15 HP engine from one maker might be 16HP and from another maker it might be 14.8HP. You have at least 4% more boat to move... maybe more. Also, how much of the hull is still pushing through the water might matter the most.

If, based on design, weight and engine position he has less hull in the water, all bets are off. Nothing slows a boat like more hull in the water and a dirty hull is even a speed killer.

^^food for thought
 

Frank Acampora

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
12,004
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Let's set the record straight.

Gasoline is a mixture of long and short chain hydrocarbons. These are carbon atoms linked together with hydrogen atoms attached to each carbon. When burned they produce carbon dioxide and water.
In reduced oxygen environments they produce carbon monoxide.

Years ago, the Society of Automotive Engineers set the knock resistance of N Octane (C8H18) to the arbitrary number of 100. All gasoline is measured against this standard. Various mixtures of hydrocarbons have more or less resistance to knocking (autoignition and detonation) and this is (relatively) independent of the carbon chain length. If interested, go to an organic chemistry book and read the flash points and ignition points of various hydrocarbons and alcohols.

All gasoline burns at essentially the same speed as evidenced by the fact that most engines use the same ignition timing advance. Engines with higher than about 9 to 1 compression ratio will operate at higher heat because air heats as it is compressed. The added heat (and possible glowing carbon deposits) will cause the low octane rated fuel to autoignite at a different point and time than at the sparkplug. When this happens two results occur: 1. because autoignition is earlier than at the plug, combustion pressures rise dramatically and cylinder heat is excessive. 2. When the flame fronts collide, they cause a hammering (ping or knock). The combination of knock and temperature melts the piston and blows away the melted aluminum, then shatters the rings.

The octane misconception occurs because in the 70s muscle cars used compression ratios of up to 13 to 1 and required at least 100 octane fuel. The faulty reasoning is: These engines were powerful so therefore the gas must be powerful as well. NOT TRUE!

Also, back then we used a compound called Tetra-ethyl lead to raise octane. This is a lead molecule with four ethyl chains attached. During combustion it released a lot of ethyl hydrocarbon chains which have a very high octane rating. Remind you of ethanol today? Oooh! let's not restart that argument! LOL Anyway, back in the early days (read Ford model "T" and model "A") high octane "Ethyl" gas did clean the engine a little better than regular and if there were a lot of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber, it would not autoignite as easily, so there was some slight advantage to using it. NOT so today.

If an engine has less than 9 to 1 compression ratio as most small outboards do, there is absolutely no advantage using a high octane rated fuel. In fact, all it does is to lighten your wallet. SO: Don't bother to buy 93 octane.

Now, back to timing advance. In order to extract the most power from the air/fuel mix and not harm the engine, it is necessary for it to burn approximately equal times before and after top dead center. Thus, as the engine is asked to speed up, we advance the timing of ignition until full advance is obtained near full throttle. Too much timing advance acts much like detonation so if we have low octane fuel, we retard the timing a bit to compensate. Power is reduced but the engine is not damaged.

In two cycle engines there are basically two types: Crossflow and loop charged. Because loop charged engines usually have a hemispherical combustion chamber with a "squish band" they DO increase the turbulence of the ignitied air/fuel mix and it DOES as a result burn faster. Thus: Loop charged engines usually have a timing advance of about 18 degrees versus the 30 degrees for crossflow. However, this is due to the engine design, not the gasoline. Again, even though the gas burns faster, ignition is not as advanced and these engines for the most part do not need or require higher than 87 octane rated gasoline.
 

all duck'd up

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
166
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Personally, I would ditch the Autolites for Champions. Champions are the manufacturer recommended plug for this engine. Also, don't trouble your self with looking for or adjusting the points, it doesn't have any. Truth be told, points haven't been present on a J/E 15 horse since '76... ;)

thanks i'll check out the specs when i get a second.

the only reason i got the Autolites is because the local boat dealer pushed them on me and said they're best so (to each his own) i guess, or he could of just needed to get them off of his shelf idk...
 

all duck'd up

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Oct 20, 2011
Messages
166
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Engine set closest to transom = slowest top speed.

Engines are not equal: a 15 HP engine from one maker might be 16HP and from another maker it might be 14.8HP. You have at least 4% more boat to move... maybe more. Also, how much of the hull is still pushing through the water might matter the most.

If, based on design, weight and engine position he has less hull in the water, all bets are off. Nothing slows a boat like more hull in the water and a dirty hull is even a speed killer.

^^food for thought

that makes since! i just figured with his motor having over 30 years of use there should'nt be a 5 mph gap. thats what puzzles me.

as for the hull; it's clean and freshly painted but its not a gloss finish
 

all duck'd up

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
166
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Let's set the record straight.

If an engine has less than 9 to 1 compression ratio as most small outboards do, there is absolutely no advantage using a high octane rated fuel. In fact, all it does is to lighten your wallet. SO: Don't bother to buy 93 octane.

Now, back to timing advance. In order to extract the most power from the air/fuel mix and not harm the engine, it is necessary for it to burn approximately equal times before and after top dead center. Thus, as the engine is asked to speed up, we advance the timing of ignition until full advance is obtained near full throttle. Too much timing advance acts much like detonation so if we have low octane fuel, we retard the timing a bit to compensate. Power is reduced but the engine is not damaged.

In two cycle engines there are basically two types: Crossflow and loop charged. Because loop charged engines usually have a hemispherical combustion chamber with a "squish band" they DO increase the turbulence of the ignitied air/fuel mix and it DOES as a result burn faster. Thus: Loop charged engines usually have a timing advance of about 18 degrees versus the 30 degrees for crossflow. However, this is due to the engine design, not the gasoline. Again, even though the gas burns faster, ignition is not as advanced and these engines for the most part do not need or require higher than 87 octane rated gasoline.


i appreciate the info on octane and the timing deal.... but i don't feel comfortable retarding anything on my motor especially when i dont have a clue about timing and how it works.

i think ill try adjusting the tilt pin 1st then from there ill look at some different props. the local boat shop guy has some slightly used ones that he said i can try before buying
 

all duck'd up

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Oct 20, 2011
Messages
166
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

i plan on taking some pictures of the setup today on my lunch, to give you guys a better idea of what im working with.


so say tooned and thanks for all of the replys!!!
 

Outsider

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,022
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Looks to me as if you have a long shaft motor on a short shaft transom. Next time you take it, run it up to speed and look at the flat plate just above the prop. I'm betting it's buried in the water which means drag, which means you'll never run him down ... :(
 

impatico

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May 24, 2010
Messages
184
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

back in the late 60's early 70's they used to run those 12:1 compression muscle cars ran on lower octane because they used lead in the fuel back then. don't know why they stopped the lead though? cost? or environment?
 

all duck'd up

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Messages
166
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Looks to me as if you have a long shaft motor on a short shaft transom. Next time you take it, run it up to speed and look at the flat plate just above the prop. I'm betting it's buried in the water which means drag, which means you'll never run him down ... :(

the plate is level with the bottom of the boat isnt that what its suppose to be???
 

cribber

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May 29, 2008
Messages
1,338
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Go up a notch or two on your motor to raise it up. That plate should be level with the waterline when you're on plane.
 

all duck'd up

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Messages
166
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

Go up a notch or two on your motor. That plate should be level with the waterline when you're on plane.

there is no other notch. what you see is what you get unless i get a jackplate made to lift it
 

dazk14

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Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
966
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

there is no other notch. what you see is what you get unless i get a jackplate made to lift it

He means out on the tilt pin. Probably position 3 of 5 will yield a couple mph, but you can try them all.

If you've painted the hull, it will cost a ~couple mph.

That is a very common prop, if you're thinking new, iboats has new Solas Amita's for $55 that will outperform the stock BRP and of course the $117 Solas stainless that will add even more performance.

In simple terms a 4 blade prop will lose a little top end, but decrease minimum planing speed and lift the stern a bit.

From the factory, your motor should be making a little more power than your buddies.
 

steelespike

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Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Messages
19,069
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

It appears the plate is at least an inch below the bottom. You can raise the motor by just using a stick on top of the transom to hold it up while you tighten the clamps just be sure the clamps have a good grip.You may be able to gain an inch or so.
If the mount has bolt holes you could use them to get it higher if necessary. A jack plate would be ideal to fine tune the height.
I usually suggest raising the motor to a point just before venting becomes a problem.In the extreme you could gain a couple of mph just by raising the motor.
Your friends motor is rated at the power head; thus his actual hp is about 5-10% lower than your prop rated motor.
All the more reason you should be faster when set up right. How many keels does your boat have? Some jon boats have 5 or more keels.these tend to slow the boat. Do we know the size of your prop?
 

impatico

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May 24, 2010
Messages
184
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

It appears the plate is at least an inch below the bottom. You can raise the motor by just using a stick on top of the transom to hold it up while you tighten the clamps just be sure the clamps have a good grip.You may be able to gain an inch or so.
If the mount has bolt holes you could use them to get it higher if necessary. A jack plate would be ideal to fine tune the height.
I usually suggest raising the motor to a point just before venting becomes a problem.In the extreme you could gain a couple of mph just by raising the motor.
Your friends motor is rated at the power head; thus his actual hp is about 5-10% lower than your prop rated motor.
All the more reason you should be faster when set up right. How many keels does your boat have? Some jon boats have 5 or more keels.these tend to slow the boat. Do we know the size of your prop?

how do you know if your motor is powerhead or prop rated? I have a 84 mariner 115 2 stroke and would love to know
 

steelespike

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Messages
19,069
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

The rating changed to prop circa 1985.You would likely need a speedometer to tell the difference.
 

impatico

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May 24, 2010
Messages
184
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

The rating changed to prop circa 1985.You would likely need a speedometer to tell the difference.

Maybe I will have to do some investigating on it, would be a lot nicer if it is prop HP
 

Philster

Captain
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
3,344
Re: why wont it go FASTER!!!

back in the late 60's early 70's they used to run those 12:1 compression muscle cars ran on lower octane because they used lead in the fuel back then. don't know why they stopped the lead though? cost? or environment?

Environment
 
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