Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

[QC]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

I just did some quick research and it was even once part of the Gulf of California before sediment in the Delta cut it off, that sounded like millions of years ago though. Apparently there were times in recorded history that the "lake" was there. Here is one historian's depiction of the event that caused the current formation:

In 1901, the California Development Company built the first canal system to divert water from the Colorado River to the Imperial Valley for the purposes of irrigation. The canal system functioned well for several years until, in 1905, unusually high floods overwhelmed the canal system and destroyed the regulating machinery. For a period of time the Salton Sea received the full, uncontrolled flow of the Colorado River. (I gotta believe that this was not a normal occurrence - QC)

Over the next two years, the Southern Pacific Railroad Company attempted to repair the breach. Underestimating the power of the Colorado River, their control structures were repeatedly washed away. Finally, in 1907, the river was sealed, but only after 350,000 acres of land had been flooded. Today some of that land has been reclaimed by the lowering of the Salton Sea through evaporation. Presently, the Salton Sea, fed by runoff from irrigation, has reached equilibrium with the rate of evaporation and stands at 235 feet below sea level.

 

[tommays]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

So we need to nuke all the man made places in the west pretty much most of some states


Tommays

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

Do not underestimate the Colorado. It is but a pathetic memory of it's former self (Pre Mead, Powell, Havasu, etc...). The highest recorded flow of the Colorado occured in 1983 at 120,000cfs and it nearly demolished Glen Canyon Dam (Lake Powell) and all lakes below it. There is evidence that the Colorado has flowed at 1,000,000cfs in is't history which we would be ill equiped to handle even today. Had the Colorado not been channelized and restricted, the Salton Sea would be a thriving eco-system as in the past. The Colorado in it's natural state is directly responsible for the Salton Sea's existence.

 

[QC]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

Agree on the flow and 1983. Great Ski season for the same reason 8) How close was Glen Canyon to having serious issues?

I used the word skeptical on purpose, I can be convinced, but there were none of the big dams in 1905 and the SS was dry then . . .

Cool, I misspelled Skeptical in the title. That spelling is correct for sceptic as in sceptic shock as in nasty stinky infection, I'm gonna claim Freudian . . .

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

In 1983, record snowpack in the Rockies. Lake Powell had just finished filling to near 100% capacity since the dam went up in 1963. 120,000cfs was enough water to raise the level of the lake at the rate of 1 foot per day! In an effort to stem the rising water, the B of R opened up the diversion channels on either side of the dam. Each of the 4 channels allows 5,000cfs to flow for a total of 20,000 cfs, plus what passed through the penstocks for a total of about 80,000cfs. Not enough to stop it, but enough to slow it way down. Well, all was fine and dandy til a tourist taking a tour of the dam looked downstream to see the water from the left hand diversion tunnels turn red (from the red sandstone in which they are dug) followed by chunks of concrete and rebar. The dam was eating itself and the left hand tunnels had to be shut down and the right hand tunnels cut way back to prevent the same thing from happening. The water started to rise once again and was within a few feet of the top of the dam. The dam engineers put their heads together and decided they would shore up the dam with plywood. It was the only solution that they had time to complete. They contracted with a company in Phoenix to come and install angle iron trusses and attatch 8 foot planks of plywood along the top rim of the dam. Remember this dam is a monolith of concrete that took 8 years of pouring 24 hours a day to create. It is a gravity dam which means that even if it were not pinned into the canyon walls, it's heavy enough to hold back 400 feet of water. And they shored it up with 3/4 inch marine grade 8 foot lengths of plywood. To their credit, it worked. The lake rose to within 1 foot of the top of their plywood dam before receding. Had the lake topped the dam, it would have been lost. Not the dam it'self (It will be there forever) but rather the canyon surrounding it would dissolve into oblivion. Grand Canyon would be destroyed. Lake Mead would no longer exist, because the rush of water would have taken out Hoover as well. The Salton Sea would have overflowed her banks and most of Southeast CA, Southwest AZ, and Northern Mexico would have been underwater for some time. It's really amazing when you think about it. Sorry if this reads like a Discovery Channel episode, I am a tour guide part time.

 

[QC]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

So what you're saying is that PW2 saved the day. Man, that hurts to admit :$

I was actually in the Grand Canyon in 1983. I'm pretty sure that pic I posted of Columbine was shot then, either way I was there . . . :%

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

That was a great year for the lakes. Could have been a bad year though.

 

[Link]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

WOW
Just a couple gaps there QC
Dentist had me take 4 5mg tablets of something called Diazepam. Made the post and woke up 12 hours later.
Will do a short coherent version later.

 

[technostingray]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

So what you're saying is that PW2 saved the day. Man, that hurts to admit :$

I was actually in the Grand Canyon in 1983. I'm pretty sure that pic I posted of Columbine was shot then, either way I was there . . . :%

Thanks QC, for enlightening the dock on the origin of the Salton Sea. I think everyone is now comfortable in thier beliefs with regard to Global warming. On the other hand an Ice age would certainly help control the mosquito population by at least 75 percent on a 30 by 30 duck pond.

 

[QC]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

You're welcome Ray.

Link, reread your post this morning and fill in a couple of the blanks; I am very close to understanding it . . .

I was thinking about this thread a little more last night. Although it might seem that QC is never ready to admit defeat, I can . . . but . . . I think it is the flyway migratory bird thing that is still bugging me. The Pelican thing too. Hang with me: If the Salton Sea was indeed dry for extended periods, then is it a safe assumption that there were no fish while it was dry? And if there were no fish, and it is fed by freshwater on and off, and if the salinity will not support freshwater fish, then is it safe to assume that it would be fishless without intervention? And if it was fishless would there be any birds? Sooooo, I think my initial point is still intact. Without man adding saltwater fish to this landlocked, accidentally (in this case) freshwater fed, salty, cesspool, there would be no birds . . . Sooo I think I am back to: What is it that we are trying to save? An artificially altered "natural" environment? That there is pretty nonsensical right?

 

[technostingray]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

. . . Sooo I think I am back to: What is it that we are trying to save? An artificially altered "natural" environment? That there is pretty nonsensical right?

one mans sceptic is another mans cesspool. Do the name Don Quixote mean anything to you. The cure for the Cheeseaburger is just around the corner.

 

[PW2]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

It wasn't my plywood, QC!

Hey, a healthy skepticism of environmental cause is a good thing. I've had many a run in with environmental groups that have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

We even had a logging site of our featured on Ontario TV News by one group showing how we damaged a 12" spruce tree. Yep, we damaged it. It was used as a bumper on a turn in the skid trail for logs, to keep from damaging trees that were designated to be left. The damaged spruce was removed upon completion as planned all along.

Simply because some group has no idea what they are talking about does not mean that all such groups don't. The key is can they back up their claims with reputable science and common sense. And withstand scientific scrutiny.

Environmental science is a complex study, and you can't always go by how a thing looks.

And the Army Corps of Engineeers has arguably done more harm to the environment than any other single group.

(Note: I have no opinion on the Salton Sea process--not enough knowledge of it)

 

[QC]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

Simply because some group has no idea what they are talking about does not mean that all such groups don't. The key is can they back up their claims with reputable science and common sense. And withstand scientific scrutiny.

I 100%, totally agree. This is why I rail against positions that IMHO hurt legitimate Environmental safeguards. I know it may seem differently, but there just so many unjustified positions to pick on. I really think you should read Clancy's "State of Fear" The story is not important, the implications and clarity are.

Environmental science is a complex study, and you can't always go by how a thing looks.

Also, agree. And man's attempts at "protecting" things have backfired a number of times. See recommendation above.

And the Army Corps of Engineeers has arguably done more harm to the environment than any other single group.

That may be true as well. Until somebody changes things though I am going to enjoy some pretty cool lakes and navigable river stretches! 8)

(Note: I have no opinion on the Salton Sea process--not enough knowledge of it)

I guess I am learning I don't as well, but I bring it up as an example of your points above.

 

[MRS]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

I have hunted at the salton sea for ducks pheasant quail rabbits place was great. But now the old desert folks are are being run out by the city type folks who really will never under stand what the sea was like and could have been today. I still love the place today but with times changing so much I know it will never be the way it was. To me it is very sad you had to be a real desert rat to have enjoyed the sea and the desert martines were the best. It was never like any other place in the world I for one will miss it. (Just my thoughts on the sea I will always have my memories):'(

 

[technostingray]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

With all this eye rolling you do, don't they get a little gritty? Or do you have a maid that comes in to mop twice a day.

You may not be an idiot but you certainly give a good imitation of one. Hey QC, you have mail.

 

[MRS]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

http://www.saltonsea.ca.gov/ss101.htm Check out this link and on the web and also do a seach (salton sea jet ski or boat racing. Just for a little information on the sea.

 

[QC]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

Techno,

No esta aqui . . . ?

MRS,

I'll look into that link. My only issue is with spending bucks to "save" something that isn't natural . . . My view is changing somewhat, but I don't belive it is man that's messing it up, evaporation is, no?

 

[MRS]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

QC, I am not trying to start any thing with anybody on this subject I just had great times down there and miss that. It is definitly not for everybody it was great while it lasted. You just brought back memories of the sea even 20yrs. ago people would not go saying I am not going to that place the water is bad. Plus with the canals down there the dunebuggys would run poles off the side and pull water skiers down the canals:^ it was a crazy wild place. P.S. after I met my wife MRS`s MRSd I took her there she said when ever you come back here leave me Home she hates it.

 

[QC]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

Wow MRS. Lots of good info there. A lot though that still confuses me. Definitely much to learn about that place before I personally head down there and yank out the plug.

Based on my limited knowledge so far, and this quote "scientific studies show the Salton Sea may have the most productive fishery in the world" which although very confusing to me, I, QC, master of the California environment and social policies, proclaim that we should save it for one reason, as a commercial fishery designed to eliminate any fish conservation need anywhere on the planet and to ensure California's economic future. Done.

Edit: never thought you were trying to start sumpin'. Actually you have helped shed some light on it for me. I was definitely reacting with limited info, which ironically was kinda the point of this thread . . . 8) Hey, BTW, you interested in another early season Havasu deal?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Why I am Sceptical of Environmental stuff

who cares what birds die, nasty critters.
eliminate the EPA and all environmental controls and let the USA progess