What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

[snapperbait]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Ya'll are just jealous cause ya know that us heathens have more fun....

<br /><br />And besides, Hell can't possibly be any worse than south Florida...<br /><br />LadyFish.. This is just for you, kiddo..

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> Very moving story,very wrong place to tell it.How about trying this out in a psychologist's office?<br />Here you get gentle pity,there you might get help.

Why the wrong place? I doubt tinkerer has unloaded that story on may people in the past, here he can do it anonomously and I bet he feels one h*ll of a lot better for doing so. <br /><br />Aldo

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Thanks for the responses. There were some very perceptive comments. <br /><br />Thanks for the positive personal comments but there's plenty been and are a lot worse off than I ever was. I resolved in my early teens that I'd never treat my kids or anyone else the way I was treated and I've stuck to it. (I also resolved around the same that I'd never drink alcohol, but that didn't last long, and I don't care!)Despite my natural inclination to make disparaging and cynical comments about wives and children in other threads, I have been with my only and the most marvellous wife for 32 years and we ain't ever gonna split, while my kids are great kids. I have my problems but I've learnt to manage them. Everybody has problems if you really know what goes on in their lives.<br /><br />I used my personal experience to illustrate the fact that no matter how desperate things got I couldn't find it in me to believe in a god, not that I haven't tried at subsequent times.<br /><br />What I'm exploring is why some people have faith and others don't, as distinct from issues about religions. I was uncertain about starting this thread but I'm pleased to see that it's kept to rational and polite conversation.<br /><br />12 Footer and I sound like we started out about the same but we ended up poles apart, although we can each understand the other's position. That's not to say that one day I mightn't follow him, but I very much doubt it. <br /><br />Gil009 said "a foxhole" makes a heathen yet our Governor General gave a speech last weekend in which he said his experiences as a soldier in Vietnam strengthened his faith. I know people who were there, and in other wars, who lost theirs. There are also people who say there are no atheists on a battlefield.<br /><br />There's plenty of examples of people who went through the most atrocious circumstances and some found faith, some lost it, and some like me who probably never had it were reinforced in that view. <br /><br />If extreme circumstances don't promote faith then maybe it's just not in the nature of the person to have it.<br /><br />I think Lake Livin hit it partly on the head in saying that rational analytical thinkers in CERTAIN PEOPLE are an obstacle to faith. There are plenty of outstanding minds like that in people who have strong faith, but in my case I always find myself analysing it and being unable to accept that I should believe in something I can't see and that I can't prove exists. Faith is exactly the opposite of that.<br /><br />The other obstacle for me is the one that several pointed out, which is linking God to humans' actions. I've been through this plenty of times with Jesuits and if they can't persuade a rational mind nobody can. I just can't accept that an all powerful, all knowing and loving God can permit so much misery in the world. If I was God I certainly wouldn't.<br /><br />Similarly, I can't divorce the actions of clergy and the like from God. The sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic and other churces is a perfect example. I accept that just because there are some bad apples in a group doesn't mean the purpose of the group is bad, but when it's as institutionalised as sexual abuse and the cover ups in the churches I think they forfeit all authority as moral teachers or representatives or interpreters of God and his Word, as the churches as institutions clearly practise exactly the opposite themselves. Hypocrisy by churches doesn't prove that God doesn't exist, but it doesn't help those of us who think that the churches ought to reflect Christ's, or for that matter Mohammed's or anyone elses, teachings about God and related issues.<br /><br />People talk about the gift of faith. In the end that may be it. You can be given it or you can find it, and you can even lose it, but if you ain't got it you just ain't. <br /><br />The reason faith is significant is that if the Bible and various religions are right, you can't get to heaven without it, no matter how good a life you lead. I don't have faith, but that ain't the same as saying that the Bible or one or another religion mightn't be right. I'm going to find out one way or another one day.

 

[jtexas]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

A predisposition toward rational and analytical thought as an obstacle to faith? I never thought of that, and I'm a pretty rational and analytical thinker myself. Rational thought is very nearly the opposite of faith, isn't it? I'll have to reconsider my opinion; maybe there is some genetic contribution to faith.<br /><br />When my mother was suffering from colon cancer, she had a grand mal seizure one day, which I learned involves extensive muscle convulsions, a very painful event. In the waiting room one of the deacons from Dad's church came visiting - and I couldn't believe what I heard him say: "This is a blessing in disguise. This is God's way of telling the doctors that there's something they need to be looking for." <br /><br />I wanted to shout, "God is God, for God's sake! If He has something to tell the doctors, He doesn't have to make her suffer like that! You stupid idiot!"<br /><br />But I held my tongue, because, to my great amazement, those words were a comfort to my dad. I love 'im, but he's no rational or analytical thinker.<br /><br />Interesting point.

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Originally posted by jtexas:<br /> A predisposition toward rational and analytical thought as an obstacle to faith? I never thought of that, and I'm a pretty rational and analytical thinker myself. Rational thought is very nearly the opposite of faith, isn't it? I'll have to reconsider my opinion; maybe there is some genetic contribution to faith.<br /><br />

An interesting line of enquiry.<br /><br />Ain't the internet marvellous? If I'd done the search your post inspired me to do before I posted I mightn't have started this thread.<br /><br />"In The God Gene, Dr. Dean Hamer reveals that the inclination toward religious faith is no accident; it is in good measure due to our genes. In fact, he argues, spiritual belief may offer an evolutionary advantage by providing humans with a sense of purpose and the courage and will to overcome hardship and loss. And, as a growing body of evidence suggests, belief also increases our chances of reproductive survival by helping to reduce stress, prevent disease, and extend life." Hamer shows that new discoveries in behavioral genetics and neurobiology indicate that humans inherit a set of predispositions that make their brains ready and eager to embrace a higher power. By analyzing the genetic makeup of over a thousand people of different ages and backgrounds, and comparing their DNA samples against a scale that measures spirituality, Hamer has actually identified a specific "God gene" that appears to influence spirituality. "<br /> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?endeca=1&isbn=0385500580&itm=3#REV <br /><br />Or for a psychological theory that requires us to accept Freud's Oedipus theory at face value (I'd find it easier to believe in God), it's all the fault of inadequate, bad or absent fathers. Woe betide us if hard line Christian feminists, if there is such a thing, get hold of that. The relevant bits are towards the end of the paper. The general propositions make sense if you accept the Oedipal theory, and certainly in my case. The only problem is that I know plenty of people from happy homes with great parents, many of them committed Christians, who share my views. The Psychology of Atheism at http://www.origins.org/articles/vitz_psychologyofatheism.html <br /><br />Anyway I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. I think it's just as illogical to assert that there is no god as it is to assert that there is one in the absence of evidence satisfactory to me for either position.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Tinkerer,<br /><br />I don't kow if there is a named category for me. I'd have to say it's somewhere between agnostic and true believer in the traditional sense.<br /><br />Many have pointed out examples that would seem to contradict the existance of an all knowing, all seeing, benevolent God. On the other hand, on occasion I notice examples that to me seem to indicate the existence of some sort of 'higher force' rather than ascribing to the theory that the world in which we live is a completely random occurance. <br /><br />These observations are comprised of human & natural components. On the natural side, it's often little things that demonstrate a complexity that would seem counter to random occurance. For example, one time I spent 30 or 40 minutes watching a spider spin a large web. Another example is watching the hummingbirds I get at my feeders every summer (literally dozens of them; at times the feeders seem more like a bee hive than a bird feeder due to the number of hummers buzzing around them.) Their ability to hover, fly backwards, etc. is amazing. I don't have children, but suspect that if I did it would be, for me, one of the most powerful examples of all. <br /><br />On the human side, there are the obvious examples such as Sister Theresa, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, etc. But I'm sure there are many more examples which are either very localized or, perhaps, completely unnoticed. Random acts of kindness. Or, for example, what would encourage/enable/allow a severly abused child to become a decent, honest adult rather than a sociopath?<br /><br />Ah well, you got me thinking, just passing on those thoughts.

 

[jtexas]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

It's hard for me to imagine the evolutionary process that would lead to a flying mammal that navigates using sonar (bats). The odds against that must be astronomical.<br /><br />BTW, Tinkerer, did you hear about the dyslexic agnostics? They don't believe in dogs.

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Lake Livin<br /><br />Interesting what you say about nature. I always get a strong feeling of marvel at whatever it was that created nature when I'm in a quiet forest of tall mountain ash with tree ferns and other beauty around. Also looking at a crystal clear sky in the country at night.<br /><br />The birth of my first kid was the most powerful experience in my life. Apart from alcohol and a couple of tries of dope I've never used drugs, but I doubt any drug could give me such a profound high. I was on cloud nine for days. Other people told me later that I was halfway off the planet, in a good way. The second kid was good too, but nothing compares with the first one. The miracle of birth is mind boggling, but when it's your own kid it's indescribable. It was a moment of transformation that I had no idea was coming or could happen to a cynic like me. I couldn't watch a birth scene in a film for a year or two later without getting a bit choked.<br /><br />I think that maybe kids who are neglected or abused have parents who for whatever reason didn't connect with them the way I did with my kids and the way most other people do. That's not to say my kids don't drive me nuts at times, but it's partly the love that restrains me from banging them up against a wall. Take that love away and I can see how you could belt a kid because they can be incredibly infuriating. I don't think I could handle being a step-parent when that connection isn't there.<br /><br />I think part of the problem with most people is that negatives have a far greater interest for and impact on us than positives. Witness the content of the news. Or my views on the Catholic Church, which has some great people in it. It's often been said that nobody would bother reading newspapers if they reported only good news. There's lots of good news around, but it just doesn't get the same attention.<br /><br />I wish we knew what determines how people turn out so we could avoid the bad ones. <br /><br />It's well established that many paedophiles were themselves sexually abused as children. The same for many violent parents who came from violent homes. It doesn't excuse their conduct but if you know their histories it goes a long way to explaining it.<br /><br />It's also the case that many people with a bad start in life would never repeat it in their own lives. While people with no adverse history will become child abusers and wife beaters and criminals. <br /><br />But it doesn't have to be spectacular abuse to damage somone or let them grow up less than whole. I've seen kids from well-off and supposedly "good" homes who have everything except love and genuine attention from their parents. They're still lonely and unhappy while flying to Kenya for their school holidays or skiing down the slopes near mum and dad's chalet. <br /><br />On a lower level I can never understand why workplaces and institutions that have demeaning or hurtful "initiation ceremonies" continue them when the victims have the opportunity to inflict them on others. I underwent a few in my youth but I never wanted to do it to anyone else. It's the same sort of mystery why some kids from apparently sound homes are schoolyard bullies and will continue the same in later life. <br /><br />I think there's a lot in us that comes pre-programmed or that is not far under the surface and will come out under the right conditions, whether its meanness or neurosis or psychosis or compassion or whatever. I'm in awe of people who were, say, POW's of the Japanese and underwent the most horrendous experiences for several years but can forgive them and work towards better understanding with them. It has to be a good nature that allows someone to be like that.<br /><br />In the end I think it's neither nature nor nurture but a combination of both that makes us whatever we are, subject to whatever overriding control we can exercise by wanting to be something rather than just going with the flow.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Tinkerer,<br /><br />I'd guess we're not too far apart regarding philosophies towards these type issues. The awe of nature thing is one of the reasons I'd have to place myself as probably a 3 or 4 on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a complete agnostic and 10 being a religous fanatic. I have no idea what form the 'force' might take that moves me up a couple of points on this scale, and suspect my perception of it is differenet than that represented by most traditional religions. But I suspect something might be there, so I guess I can't label myself a complete agnostic... <br /><br />jtexas, the bat/ sonar thing is a great example of what I was talking about. Personally, though, I'm more prone to believe that any creationist force used evolution as a tool rather than completely discounting evolution. Just my take.<br /><br />p.s. Tinkerer, have you ever read the book 'The Lords of Discipline' by Pat Conroy? It's about cadets at a US military college, particularly how one of them reacts to the institutional hazing present. Extremely well written, one of my favorite books of all time. If you get a chance you might want to check it out. I suspect you'd really enjoy it.

 

[jtexas]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

About a year ago, Conroy published a non-fiction book called My Losing Season about his time at the Citadel. Less dramatic than his fiction but still a good read if you liked Lords of Discipline and The Great Santini. Sort of the true story behind the novels.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

jtex,<br /><br />read it, along with all the rest of Conroy's stuff. Wondering when his next book will come out...

 

[JasonJ]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

I have been through the rough stuff in my life as well, and I never looked to God to fix my problems. I am not religious, but I do know that God gave Man free will, and with that freedom comes the consequenses of action. Everything I went through in my life was the direct result of poor choice either by others or myself, not because God is up there saying "Its time for Jason to suffer for three weeks". <br /><br />Religion is the scourge of mankind. Overwhelmingly, it has been used to control through fear and opression, has caused more problems in this world than any other thing, yet people still cling to it. Why can't people just believe in God without having to force it on everyone else? We go to war, we kill, we maim, all to say "My God can kick your God's arse". Am I the only one who thinks that is insane? To me, being spiritual, having faith, being kind to others, is what it is about. Not the pitiful display I have witness my entire life in the guise of "organized religion". <br /><br />Yeah yeah yeah, I know, not everyone who is "religious" is bad. But hey, you don't see non-religious people flying airplanes into buildings do you? And don't even start on Abortion or any of the other "Godless" activities people engage in. God gave Man free will, its as simple as that. We now excersize that free will, and it is not for Man to judge other men, it is only God who can judge us. That is what the so many of the devout cannot understand. If they don't like other people's actions, too bad. Only God gets to judge, everyone else is just puny humans....

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Tinkerer, bear with me here now and make the unheathen assumption that there is a God. This will be how I wish to lead you to an answer to your question.<br /><br />Man consists of three components. The spirit, soul and the body.<br /><br />The body is easy to understand and represents our carnal desires and wants, it tends to be the side of us that least considers people and their feelings. It is selfish and selfcentered etc. Unfortunately for many it is the most developed portion of our tripartheid being.<br /><br />The spirit, well that is the part that allows communication with God. It is also the part that many will say distinguishes us from animals. It resides in various proportions dependant on how much exercise the spirit has had. For many it is the most underdeveloped part.<br /><br />Then there is the soul or as many refer to it "the seat of our understanding". This is the part of us that acts as a set of balances. Imagine having the spirit on the one side and the soul on the other. The soul (intellect) will determine which way to go. If our carnal side is better developed we will naturally swing there.<br /><br />Now when talking of the carnal side it need not be the extremes that one may invisualise like lustful behaviour or other deviant practices. It can also be a desire to not be with God.The spirit and the soul are like muscles that require feeding to develop. They also need to be trained. The body however is doing more than fine as it has been suitably "trained" for years.<br /><br />Allow me to digress here. If there is a God then too there is a devil who is constantly trying to keep one from worshipping God. When "sin" is first presented to us it happens early on in our lives, for many there is an environment that is good and inconsistent with evil. Unfortunately some have informative years that do not present the world or christianity in a positive light, on the contrary life is filled with fear (the exact oppostite of Love).<br /><br />To understand the concious / unconcious process of hardening one concience think of a piece of white paper held alongside a slightly offwhite piece. If faced with the decision to take either, but the offwhite piece has "nice things" attached then this is the piece we take. The next time it is not the white piece we are offered again but the offwhite piece against an even more offwhite piece with the same benefits. Pretty soon our concience become hardened and we end up chosing extremely dark pieces of paper. <br /><br />Anyways, if one has an upbringing in which Love, goodness and happiness are present then often to understand the concept of a good supreme being is not that hard. The intellect is then conditioned to goodness or conversely not.<br /><br />"So what makes a heathen." For me it would be the process of hardening ones heart to God, intentionally or otherwise to the point that one could not consider the notion of a God. This is then supported by intellectual debates like "if there was a God then how could .......?" <br /><br />"So what makes a heathen pray."<br />At some point in time I believe that God calls everyone. It is at this point I believe when God infuses us with a desire to understand who we really are and who our creator is. God will give us a sampling of his love through whatever channel that we respond to. It may be through dramatic circumstances or it may be less visible in the form of a quiet naggin. At this point the spark of a spirit given to all is fanned and interest is invoked, either in a gentle manner or in the face stuff. It is then up to the (non exercised) soul to suppress the body and to make a decision, else the soul will be overriden by the body. Tough call at the time.<br /><br />We are confused by love, we english speaking have one word for it and it is used to describe many different things. The Greeks on the other hand discovered that there were four types of love. Philios - which is a general love for one another and almost does not require God but tends to be conditional. Storge - is the love we would have instinctively like for a puppy dog or a new born baby, it is not conditional. Eros is sexual and describes the physical and sexual love between a man and a woman. Finally there is the Agape love which is the unconditional love of God that knows now bounds. This is the love spoken of in the bible and the one that many confuse as love is not an emotion, it is a concious act of ones will to do the right thing for one another. This is how we are able to tell whether the act is of God or not. <br /><br />It is said that once one shares in the Agape love of God that at this point a heathen stops praying and a believer carries on.<br /><br />Hope this helped?<br /><br />Cheers<br />Andrew

 

[jtexas]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

I wouldn't say this to any of my Baptist relatives, but I've wondered about whether Satan is an entity, like God as I believe it him. If so, then where did he come from? Must be a creation of God. The alternative (assuming we all accept the existence of evil in the world) is that "Satan" is really the "carnal" side of humans (using AL's definition of "carnal"). Think about it: does "evil" occur naturally in nature? Maybe a cheetah represents evil to a zebra, or JB to a musky (no offense, JB). I don't think so.<br /><br />just a thought.<br /><br />Interesting quote from todays Dilbert:<br />"People are so accustomed to taking sides that a balanced analysis looks to them like hatred."

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

JT<br /><br />Satan was the angel of light "Lucifer" who tried to create an insurrection against God. He thought he was the man and tried to get all the other angels to follow him as he tried to overthrow God. It was during this time that the account in Gen 1:1 to Gen 1:2 is generally accepted by biblical scholars as the “Ante-Chaotic Age” or “The Dispensensation of Angels”. Simply put this is when Lucifer and his fallen angels were rulers of the earth (Is 14:12-14 & Ezek 28:14). After being cast down to earth satan ruled with his fallen angels, know one knows how long this reign was for. Scripture also tells us that during this period that there was no light as it was an age of darkness and sin. Because there was no sunlight/light the water vapour rose from the ground condensed and fell back down (Gen 2:6). This caused the earth to flood over a period of time, known as the flood of Lucifer. Note that the flood of Lucifer and the flood of Noah were different in their outcome, there are 20 differences between the floods.<br /><br />There are scriptures that say that angels were attempting to or were having relations with humans and this displeased God greatly.<br /><br />If God is real then so is satan. As God calls his followers to him so does satan. It is a fight for souls, a fight that satan knows he is unable to win yet he continues for he is evil. Satan is represented throught our carnal nature.<br /><br />Cheers<br />Andrew

 

[Solittle]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Tinkerer – In a way the question of faith is a rather simple one. Either you believe that there is a God or that there is not. If you reject God in your life move on to the next post.<br /><br />God has given you free will. If you choose to ignore God that is OK - he is patient. If you are not sure that there is or is not a God but would like to know more about him – give it a shot – invite him into your life – be honest and open. He will let you know.<br /><br />The pain of your youth is a tragedy. While the details are different I can relate – my dad blew town before I was born – when I was 10 mom hooked up with an abusive alcoholic and the “domestic violence” followed as they say today. That pain is like a festering wound. Again you have a choice – you can pick at the wound and watch it fester as the years go by or you can make a conscious choice to let it heal and get on with your life. The scar will always be there as that is part of who you are but it won’t drag you down.<br /><br />I also believe that faith is not defined by ritual, the confessional or dogma. Today I am a practicing Catholic and started my personal faith walk over 25 years ago when I was close to 40. It has been a great ride so far and once in a while I stumble yet I know that my faith community is there to lift me up.<br /><br />I get together at church with around 60-70 men every Friday morning for an hour at what we call Prayer Muffin (coffee & breakfast). We review the readings for Sunday, one of the guys will give a short talk about his Christian walk and we will share what is going on in our lives. We wrap it up with prayer petitions and hit the door at 8 am. Next week I will ask the guys to pray for you to find peace.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

JasonJ, I think your right religion is one of the scourges of man kind but Religion and faith in God are two different things. There is no ritual that will ever bring you closer to God than you can do by just reaching out to him. Religion is mans way of trying to touch God. A relationship through Gods son, Jesus is Gods way of touching us,but it takes faith. Religion is man made and that is why it is abused and used in ways such as 9/11 and war. <br /><br />Andrew, Jtexas and solittle both have written some awesome posts. Tinkerer it is my guess that just the fact that you made this post shows that there is something in you that might be looking for more. Maybe searching to fill a void inside of you that many people sadly never figure out how to fill and yet try everything like drugs, drinking, sexx and all the other hollow things instead of the one thing that can fill it, God. God calls his people and unfortionetly many ignor him and miss out on the greatest treasure ever. If you reach out to God he will reach back, this much I know.

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: What does it take to make a heathen, or make a heathen pray?

Originally posted by jtexas:<br /> A predisposition toward rational and analytical thought as an obstacle to faith? I never thought of that, and I'm a pretty rational and analytical thinker myself. Rational thought is very nearly the opposite of faith, isn't it?

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy answer is that without Faith, God is nothing.<br /><br />For example, let's assume that God DOES exist, and he proved himself. If our every demand for proof and explanation were satisfied, we'd only trust and follow God to the extent that he proved himself to us. But that may not be possible, if we are also to assume the complexity of an All-Powerful Being, because we may lack the capacity to understand his reasons. <br /><br />If, in accordance with popular belief, God does indeed charge his followers with tasks to carry out his will, they may be required to do so without knowing the full reason behind it, because they lack the capacity to understand the grand scope of things. That can only happen with faith.<br /><br />Liken it to training a dog to hunt. The dog does not have the capacity to understand why it must follow commands, why it has to supress it's natural instincts to chase birds when they flush, or fully understand the ultimate goal of hunting. Yet you still require the dog to learn the lessons anyways. The only difference is that the dog learns these skills by force, and carries out the tasks under threat of force, while you have free will.<br /><br />I'm not trying to convert you, or tell you that you MUST believe. But if you are to be TRULY analytical, you must also look at arguements from the opposition. Perhaps there is a very good reason that you have no solid, concrete proof of the existence of God.