Wake Tower - Tubers

[spdracr39]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

I've seen at least one other aftermarket company advertise that they are made for tubing. My BIL bought a Crownline and the dealer told him it was OK to tube from the tower. Personally, I wouldn't do it. There is a great deal of stress on a tubing rope that just isn't present on a ski/boarding rope. Just look at the size of the 4K rated rope vs. a wakeboarding rope. When I was looking for my current V-drive boat, I walked away from a few that had the spider cracks at the feet of the tower. I know that they were likely cosmetic and wouldn't affect the structure of the boat but I didn't want to worry about having to convince the guy who eventually buys the boat from me that all the spider cracks were OK.
fortunately, my boat has a very large and well reinforced ski pylon that keeps the ropes out of the water and looks like it is sturdy enough to pull a house.

The leverage issue mentioned in post 6 still applies to a pylon it's just not as tall. Use your tow ring !!

 

[spdracr39]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

have to disagree here. An advanced wakeboarder cutting away from the boat is putting far more side load on the tower than any tube ever will. A good tower is designed to take load in every direction except forwards.

I still wouldnt pull a tube from the tower, mostly because it seems like tubes run better when pulled from the transom hooks than up high.

The point I think that is being made here is that even if the tower will take the load the boat will not because it could tip to the side unless the tower breaks off. Either way there is potential for danger that is totally unneccessary because almost every boat has a safe way to tow from the ski ring down low.

Can you drive 150mph on the freeway because your car will go that fast? Yes
Just because you CAN do it is it safe? No
Just because you have done it 100 times or have seen it done 100 times should you do it? No
Will people listen to what most everyone is telling them if it is not what they want to hear? Probly not but we tried

 

[halfmoa]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

have to disagree here. An advanced wakeboarder cutting away from the boat is putting far more side load on the tower than any tube ever will. A good tower is designed to take load in every direction except forwards.

I still wouldnt pull a tube from the tower, mostly because it seems like tubes run better when pulled from the transom hooks than up high.

This is a blatant disregard of physics. A tube that's gone 20 feet under water most certainly takes more effort to pull than a wakeboarder ever could. Ever. Unless they went underwater and managed to hold on...which they couldn't...because of the forces involved.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

^+1. Those that do not understand the LAWS of physics are doomed.

 

[theservicegroup777]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

have to disagree here. An advanced wakeboarder cutting away from the boat is putting far more side load on the tower than any tube ever will. A good tower is designed to take load in every direction except forwards.

I still wouldnt pull a tube from the tower, mostly because it seems like tubes run better when pulled from the transom hooks than up high.

A Tube will always have more drag than a person cutting waves on a board. Its quite simple. Same person on a board or tube is the same weight regardless. The tube has more surface area touching the water hence creating more drag.

If you and advanced wakeboarder (like me and my crew) you use the pulley system on your tower anyways.

The issue with the tube in almose 100% of the time when you powerslide somone they come up running parallel right next to you (almost). Here is where the issue lies.

Lets say you go to whip them onto the left side (PORT SIDE) Once the rope passes the point where the Front Right and the Back Left Support (Roughly 30 Degrees) you have no support. Whats left it your tuber pulling perpendicular to the tower and directly on the boats fiberglass and gelcoat. Unless you put in cross supports to support the weight of the load when the tuber is outside the wake. At this point the tower would have more support bars in the way taking up your boats space. We have done it. Even with the pulley system its to much stress trust me.

It may seem ok at first.

Please be my guest.

Tube from it each weekend for 3-4 seasons and then shoot me some pictures of the inside and out of where its mounted to the boat. (Stress crackssssssssssss)

Not being a D**K here but for people that dont know that my read this thread later on its good to lets them know of the dangers and precautions of the situation. Not only short term but long term. Noone wants a weakend damage boat in 5 years when they try to sell.

Going back to that link posted above. I began to think. Towers are rated usually 500lbs + for towing. It claimed to be tube certified....if you had a 100-250lb pound tuber going straight, then the tower would most likely be perfectly fine. So for the manufacter to say "tube certified" is quite vauge.

As a side note menards has a quick release ($18) Mount this on the boat end. Send someone into a powerslide and pull. See ya!!!

 

[theservicegroup777]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

WOW.... I should have proofread//lol its 2:30am.. Sorry for the typos guys

 

[akorcovelos]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

This is a blatant disregard of physics. A tube that's gone 20 feet under water most certainly takes more effort to pull than a wakeboarder ever could. Ever. Unless they went underwater and managed to hold on...which they couldn't...because of the forces involved.

who said anything about a tube being 20' under water? I'm talking about a tube riding across the water versus a wakeboarder cutting away from the boat. I have a very good understanding of physics, and physics say a board cutting a hard edge against the pull of the boat creates far more load than a tube sliding across the surface of the water.

My comment was in response to the post stating a tower will fold like a chair when side loaded which is just silly. I don't pull tubes from pylons or towers because they don't ride as well versus being pulled from the transom, but I see people doing it all the time. I've never seen or heard of any towers collapsing or boats capsizing. Can any of you find one example of this ever happening or are you just 'experts' that know better than the manufacturer who said it's OK with their equipment? The internet is a funny place where people seem to know everything about topics they have no direct experience with.

Somebody please post an actual documented example of a tower collapsing or boat capsizing from tubing.

 

[theservicegroup777]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

who said anything about a tube being 20' under water? I'm talking about a tube riding across the water versus a wakeboarder cutting away from the boat. I have a very good understanding of physics, and physics say a board cutting a hard edge against the pull of the boat creates far more load than a tube sliding across the surface of the water.

My comment was in response to the post stating a tower will fold like a chair when side loaded which is just silly. I don't pull tubes from pylons or towers because they don't ride as well versus being pulled from the transom, but I see people doing it all the time. I've never seen or heard of any towers collapsing or boats capsizing. Can any of you find one example of this ever happening or are you just 'experts' that know better than the manufacturer who said it's OK with their equipment? The internet is a funny place where people seem to know everything about topics they have no direct experience with.

Somebody please post an actual documented example of a tower collapsing or boat capsizing from tubing.

What Brand and Model wake tower do you own?

 

[akorcovelos]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

just got this boat, no tower yet. Big Air Ice Tower will be on order in a month or so if that helps? My old boat had a 6' fixed pylon. Not sure what that has to do with this conversation though? If your trying to make a point that I don't own a tower, point made. Still doesn't change the validity of what I said. I never claimed to be an expert telling people what will or will not happen if they pull a tube with their tower. I said I've seen it done more times than I can count and never seen a single problem. Then I asked someone to post one example of a tower failing or a boat capsizing from pulling a tube. Still don't see any actual proof either has ever happened? Until someone produces some proof this has happened it's just more bad internet info based on "keyboard expert" opinions. I'll believe manufacturer recommendation over that any day.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

the issue is that the reason for capsizing is not captured in the BARD as of yet. they are categorized as capsizing and ejection or equipment failer, not boat tipped over because the tube dug into the water and tipped the boat over

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_statistics.aspx

there is a proposal to BARD via USCG-2003-14963 document the activity and other pertinent information, however that is not in place yet.

its not that I am a "keyboard expert" I simply know the laws of physics. we get boats out of the sand in all the time by pulling on their towers with a rope to get the boat to roll over enough for the keel to rise.

 

[halfmoa]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

who said anything about a tube being 20' under water?

I did.

Tubes go under. It happens. More frequently if you're pulling inexperienced tubers who are too far forward on an under-inflated tube. I've been on boats since I was 4. I've seen crazy stuff happen that was unexpected and unplanned. I've seen tubes come up covered in mud because they were submarined so hard. S**t happens and your gear had better be ready to handle it, that's all. One of my closest friends was thrown from a boat, ran over, leg chopped to shreds by the prop, stopped breathing, went unresponsive, and lived to tell the tale. That was only because a boat circled the boat he was in causing an unexpected response from the water. Bad things happen especially when you don't heed warning labels and experienced advice.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[theservicegroup777]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

just got this boat, no tower yet. Big Air Ice Tower will be on order in a month or so if that helps? My old boat had a 6' fixed pylon. Not sure what that has to do with this conversation though? If your trying to make a point that I don't own a tower, point made. Still doesn't change the validity of what I said. I never claimed to be an expert telling people what will or will not happen if they pull a tube with their tower. I said I've seen it done more times than I can count and never seen a single problem. Then I asked someone to post one example of a tower failing or a boat capsizing from pulling a tube. Still don't see any actual proof either has ever happened? Until someone produces some proof this has happened it's just more bad internet info based on "keyboard expert" opinions. I'll believe manufacturer recommendation over that any day.

I'm no "keyboard expert" I have had various towers on my boats for the past 15 years. I'm speaking from experience.

Out of curiousity have you done the math that shows the actual force/ resistance for a 200lb rider on a tube and wakeboard let say between 45 and 75 degrees from the tower? If so can you post the equation/answer up so we can see?

I have never actually dont the math to figure out the pull... My knowledge is based on experience. If i were to pick up a 5 lb weight and a 25lb weight blindfolded. I would know which one was heavier. Thats all i'm saying..

 

[theservicegroup777]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

Proof is in the Pudding. Straight from the horses mouth.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

I'm no "keyboard expert" I have had various towers on my boats for the past 15 years. I'm speaking from experience.

Out of curiousity have you done the math that shows the actual force/ resistance for a 200lb rider on a tube and wakeboard let say between 45 and 75 degrees from the tower? If so can you post the equation/answer up so we can see?

I have never actually dont the math to figure out the pull... My knowledge is based on experience. If i were to pick up a 5 lb weight and a 25lb weight blindfolded. I would know which one was heavier. Thats all i'm saying..

lets do some instant rough math.

the average 50th percentile male can only produce 134# grip strength in the right arm. lets use that as the maximum pull you can get on a skier or wakeboarder because there are too many other factors involved, and that is what they can pull on the rope with. A tube is a different story.

take the average rope of 75', anchor it 8' above the water on your tower. doing the math on the angle, we see the rope is at 83 degrees from the tower, or 92.2% of the force is applied horizontally, and 7.8% is applied vertically down.
The resultant force is 123.6# applied 8' up which is a coupling moment of 988 lb-ft. (about the same as a 250# person sitting on your gunwale in an 8' wide boat, or a 200# person sitting on your swim platform). connected to the ski eye in the transom 2' above the water we would be less than 1/4 the load.

now, lets do the same forces when a tube catches water. since water is not compressible, and since the force is proportional to the speed. you are trying to move a column of water the area of the tube and the length of the rope. this force is well over 4000#. lets use 2000# just for the calculation because you may have a small tube, etc.

2000# x 92.2% is 1844# of force. couple this to your tower at 8' above the water and we get 14752 lb-ft of moment. the equivalent of 7350# sitting on your gunwale in the same 8' wide boat, or approx 5880# sitting on your swim platform

therefore when a tube attached to a tower becomes submerged, the resulting forces will be the equivalent of you carrying my truck on your swim platform, or my truck loaded with gravel sitting on your gunwale.

we can use another analogy here. try loostening your lug nuts with a 6" wrench. it can be done, however the force required to loosten them would be 4 x higher than using the 2' long wrench.

forget the strength of the tower, that is an engineering strength of materials exercise that can easily be handled. we are talking the pure physics of overturning your boat here.

 

[spdracr39]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

Ok here is a simple solution. If you don't believe the math try pulling your tube from a wakeboard rope and see how long you can hold on. Or better yet tie it on to the tube and see how long it goes before breaking. There is a reason a tube rope is rated at a minimum of 2000lb pull strength.

You can't cure stupid all you can do is avoid it at all costs which seems to be becoming more difficult every day.

 

[akorcovelos]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

Interesting info for sure. I haven't, nor want to run any numbers on this. I'm only basing the pulling force of a wakeboarder on personal experience where the rider can cut out hard enough to drag the rear of the boat and cause a big lean in the boat. Obviously its far more pronounced on my friends 19.5' Bayliner versus my 21' Webbcraft, but it can still be felt when it happens. Running the math is good way to get an idea of what could theoretically happen, but I still can't find one reported case of a boat being capsized or a tower failing from tubing. Again, I am not advocating pulling a tube from the tower, just can't find an example to prove why not too.

 

[Lake Lizzard]

Re: Wake Tower - Tubers

have to disagree here. An advanced wakeboarder cutting away from the boat is putting far more side load on the tower than any tube ever will. A good tower is designed to take load in every direction except forwards.

I'm betting that most people couldn't lift, or resist the pull of around 300-400 pounds with their hands on a rope handle. Most wouldn't be even close to this. There is no way a wakeboarder cutting out to the side is going to generate that much pressure as a rule. A tube with a one or more people on it whipping out on a turn is likely going to be way more rope pressure than a wakeboarding cutting away from a boat.

On the other hand...plunge a tube under water accidentally while the boat is going 15 mph+ and I'm guessing you could easily have 1,000-2,000+ pounds peak pressure as the momentum of the boat keeps going and the tube stops.

It only takes one split second for things to go bad fast (as often happens on the water). Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it...probably not.