volvo penta 170 overheating

tomcatdsl · Aug 12, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Well here's the latest in the continuing saga. Ordered a rebuild kit for water pump on port engine (the over heater), and while waiting for it to arrive, I decided to try switching the water pump from the starboard engine to the port to see if that performed any differently. Now the problem with the starboard engine which I haven't gotten around to addressing ye, is that there is water in the oil as demonstrated by the grey mayonaise consistancy of the stuff. Previous owner told me he thought there was a leak in the oil cooler, which was alowing water into the system. Just for laughs, I disassembled the starboard raw water pump, and to my surprise, there was a seal missing around the shaft. Hmmmmmmm, could that be the source of the water in the oil? I was pretty amazed to find that seal gone, but I suppose I should be, considering the wrong impeller was found to have been used in the port rwp. So now I'm looking at rebuilding or replacing not one, but two rwp's. Question,.....how hard is the rebuild kit to install? What all is involved that might hang me up? I noticed in the manual that I have, which seems rather poorly written, talks about needing a puller and a press(?). I daintly tugged on one of the seals and didn't want to put too much force on it to avoid damage, and it seemed pretty tightly in place. What kind of puller and what kind of press are they talking about? Thanks again! Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 12, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

They are very easy to rebuild. The hardest part is to get the old INNER seal out of the pump body. There are 2 seals in there so be careful which way round you reinstall them and make sure there is a gap between the 2 seals to keep the weep hole in the pump body open. That gives you a open drain so water can get out to the bilge before it passes through the second seal and into the engine front cover. Check your manual for reassembly instructions. I have a drawing of those pumps somewhere which I can email to you if you wish. Regards Peter

tomcatdsl · Aug 12, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

I would appreciate the drawing if you could find It and send it along. My e-mail is tomcatdsl@yahoo.com I don't recall seeing a weephole when I disassembled them both last night. I'll look again tonight after work. The only "hole" I saw was the channel for the retainer screw for the eccentric thingy (cam?) on the side of the pump housing that forces the blades of the impeller over into a slight bend. Other than that screw channel, I don't recall seeing an opening into the housing. Wouldn't such an opening break the vacuum and reduce water flow into the cooling system? Wonder if my model of pump is same as yours? How do you suggest removing the seals? Is there a trick or technique you prefer? Do you really need a press and/or puller? Thanks again. Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 12, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Tom, Weep hole is to drain the space between the two seals around the shaft and it may be plugged with oil & dust. Have a look inside the body about 1/4" to 3/8" up from the bottom of the cavity where the seals are held. The shaft must be removed but pushes out easily towards the impellor side. You may need to poke about inside the housing with a piece of wire (bent L shape) to find the hole(s). Clear them of any debris as this may be why your other engine has water in the oil pan as water under pressure will blow past the inner seal and into that timing cover to the pan. I'll have a look for those drawings unless Aldo can put his hand on somthing first. Regards Peter

Dunaruna · Aug 12, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Can't find a scematic of the pump yet but I'm still looking

Aldo

tomcatdsl · Aug 13, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Thanks gents, Found the weep holes last night. Indeed, on one of the pumps, they were obstructed. Will clear them out w/ a pipe cleaner or paper clip or something. Got the rubber seals out ok, but wondering how I'm going to get the rest of the guts out of the housing. The guides for the shaft look challenging. How are those best removed so that the new guides can be inserted? It seemed like there was a fair amount of slack between the shaft and the guides. Not tons, but detectable. Suggestions? Thanks! Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 13, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Tom, I havn't got those drawings here as the file folder is out at our beach home where my boat is resting. I have however got 2 more spare pumps from extra parts that I have accumulated over the past year. They are made by Johnson Pumps in the US marked 1/2" and a casting # on the body of 'P21956' Just a thought - check that the wear plate is still installed in the back of the pump body. It is about 1/16" thick, the same diameter as the inside of the body with the shaft passing throught it and stops the impellor from wearing into the back of the pump body. If it is not in there there is no preload or crush on the ends of the impellor, result - no vacumm to pull the water up into the pump. I have got a pump (complete with blocked drain hole)with me now at home, I can photograph the parts tomorrow (Sunday AM) in daylight if required and email to you. Regards, Peter

tomcatdsl · Aug 14, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Thank you sir! I'm so happy and grateful to you and Aldo for all your help! My wifey and I were talking about how fantastic it is that somebody half way arounbd the world even bothers to type a message along these lines. She says it's because we share the same madness, boats that is!

I believe those photos will help me alot to confirm that I am putting it back together properly. Thanks! Quick question. When putting in the rubber seals, which way should the tapered face of the seal go? There's a flat face and a tapered or stepped face. Which way do they go? Tapered towards the weep holes or flat face toward the weep holes? Thanks again guys, for all your help! Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 14, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Tom, From memory the inside seal is installed with the lip (spring side) facing towards the impellor. The outer seal is installed with the lip towards the oil. Facing opposite directions. Although the pump initially starts with a vacumm in the body when the engine is running it is a pressure pump and therefore will leak water through the drain hole when that seal fails. The inside seal needs to be installed to the bottom of the recess and the outer seal is only pressed in to the top of the bore. Make sure that the drain hole is clear at this point. Keep both seals square when you install them and lubricate the seals with a little grease so they dont start dry. Also check the drive slot edges on the shaft and file the edges smooth if there is a rough edge before you insert the shaft through the seals turning it slowly as you do so. This will help prevent the shaft cutting the seal lip when installed. I got some pix today so I will download these tomorrow and email to you. BTW the reason my spare pump had a blocked drain was because the inner seal was still installed in the body and 2 more seals were installed above it. Total 3. Would never work. That inner seal is not nice to remove but it must be taken out. Regards Peter

tomcatdsl · Aug 15, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Hi Peter, Thank you again for your help. I will look forward to seeing the photos. I remember that the inner seal was installed with the flat face toward the weepholes, but couldn't remember how the outer seal was oriented. If I understand what you are saying, when you look down at the outer seal in place, you should see the spring side or lip, do I understand you correctly? Also, how critical is it to replace the metal sleeves in which the shaft turns? Is a small amount of play acceptable or should those be replaced as well. There is a machine shop nearby that probably could get those sleeves out if it was absolutely necessary. There's not that much play there, but a slight amount, and the rebuild kit did come with new sleeves, but I was not sure if it was necessary to change them out if the wear was not too awfully bad. The movement of the shaft is probably less than, say, 1 to 0.5 mm, it seems pretty minor, but I thot I'd ask about it anyway. Thanks again for your kind assistance! Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 15, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Tom, You are correct with seal install as you describe. The bushes need to have some clearance in them otherwise the shaft will sieze in the bushes. The only lubricant in there is water when the engine is running. If you can feel wear on the shaft then the shaft is worn, needs to be replaced and the bushes as well. There is no side loading on the shaft when operating so I would guess that shaft wear is minimal, you may see a wear mark but its not necessarly a factor in this case. If you can feel the 'step' on the shaft with your finger nail it should be replaced. I have just phoned my Volvo dealer. The answer is that "there is no measurement quoted in the book for bush - shaft clearance" My opinion is that if you had .015" - .020" clearance then it would probably be OK and run happily at that. When you have a hard metal (shaft) and a soft metal (bush) working together usually it is the harder of the 2 metals that wears first. My books are all at the beach about 1,1/4 hours east from here and I am not going to get back to the beach for another couple of weeks. You need to be going before then. Take a good look at the thrust plate in your pump, mine has a lot of pitting on both sides and would not be kind on a new impellor at all. I have some pictures ready for you to send soon. Regards Peter

Peter J Fraser · Aug 17, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Hi Tom, Good news, I found the drawing and I've emailed it to you. The drawing is a bit blurry but it shows the seals back to back with the drain hole between them. Peter

tomcatdsl · Aug 23, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Hello Peter and Aldo, I have an update on the weirdness. The rebuild kit did the trick on the port engine! It's great,.....but...... now on the starboard engine, the one that had water in the oil. Remember I disassembled the raw water pump on that one, and found that one seal was missing. So I cobbled together the best seal I had from the port engine, and put the starboard back together and it ran fine. So the next thing I did on Peter's advice, was to change out the oil and filter on the Starboard engine to begin the process of eliminating the water contamination. By the way, I bought one of those little dip stick hole suckers and boy, what a dissappointment. Hardly sucked at all. What a rip off! Anyway, after adding back the 6 quarts of oil the factory guide book specified, I started it up and crossed my fingers. At first, it sounded great and seemed fine, but with in 5 minutes, the oil light came on. So I turned it off and pulled the dip stick, wiped and reinserted. The was only a tiny drop of oil on the very tip. So scratching my head, I added first one additional quart and then another. Again at first, it seemed fine. Then within 5minutes again, the oil light came on again. Again it was the same old thing, apparently not enough oil in the system, but that couldn't be. So I started looking for oil leaks any where, and also checked the water outside the boat, thinking maybe it was blowing out the exhaust somehow, but there was not any evidence of oil on the water out side the boat. I'm once again at a loss and asking your help. What could be going on? Where's all that oil going, and why didn't it do this before I changed the filter and drained the crankcase? I checked the drain plug in the crank case and it seems not to be leaking, aslo chaked around the oil cooler and filter, and I couldn't find a leak that was obvious. Oil doesn't dissapear in to thin air, sow what could be going on? Thanks, Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 23, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Tom, You've pulled out a big one out here! 1: did any oil come back onto the dipstick after the engine was shut down for 15 mins or so? 2: With no external signs of oil and no leaks inside and around your engine the oil should still be all in the oil pan. 3: If the oil cooler element failed, oil will pump across into the cooling system but you are right in looking for an external slick on the ground. That has to be a large leak to dump that qty of oil but no trace? hard to believe.

4: If the rear main seal has failed then oil should still be leaking from the flywheel housing and into the bilge from there. 5: Recheck your oil level again after the engine has been standing and also check the dipstick as on some construction machinery that I have been around you have to 'dip' the oil twice to get an accurate reading on the stick as some will actually airlock in the tube and show nothing at all when first pulled out. The oil light flashing may have been from the air being expelled from the filter after it was installed. Because it is mounted on its side it is not possible to pre-prime the can before installation. Good luck, Peter

tomcatdsl · Aug 23, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Hi Peter, thanks for the speedy reply! OOOOOO, you scare me with that talk about the rear main seal! You are right, there should have been scads of oil all around on the water, if the stuff was going outside some how, and there just wasn't. So, either is/was flowing through the seal and back in the bilge, as you said, or there's something really fishy going on. There is a fair amount of oil in the bilge but I was thinking that was because I had difficulty containing the oil when I opened the drain plug on the bottom of the pan. I had a pan there to catch it, but it rapidly over flowed that and before I could get the second pan in place, I nudged the first pan spilling half of that one too. Maybe this is where the term "Cussing like a sailor" came from, things like this! I ran over at lunch today and fired it up for 5 minutes and then checked the oil again, and this time, even tho the red light stayed on, the dip stick showed it was over full. Would the oil light stay on if it was over full as well as under full? I think what I better do is clean all the oil out of the bilge and try to run it again, and see if any fresh oil shows up in the bilge. If so, I bet your statement about the seal may be sadly true. :-( Oh, I didn't wait a full 15 minutes between oil checks Sunday, I only waited about 5. Not enough time, huh? I know it's hard to believe, dissappearing oil, that is....that's why I was scratching my head so hard. Am I correct in my understanding that it is supposed to take 6 quarts? Might it be a bad sending unit that is keeping the oil light on steadily? Let's say I clean out the bilge (which WAS amazingly clean when I bought the boat) and get it all spotless. Then, start and run the engine for a while, and oil IS coming from the flywheel housing, I suppose that is a major job and might best be left to a boat yard? It would involve full removal of the engine in order to get to the seal, would it not? And this is the engine that has had water in it for who knows how long. Maybe I ought to just think about having the damn thing overhauled. Ouch! I really don't want to think about that alternative. If the rear seal has failed, then it's possible that the flywheel housing could be chock full of oil, huh? Well, let me play around with this thing a while and I'll get back to you and keep you posted. Once again, thanks for all your help! Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 23, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Capacities Have a look at this link Tom, It says that you need 6.5 quarts for an oil and filter change. If the rear seal had failed, it was very sudden and that is unlikely but it would show as a leak around the bottom of the F/W housing. I would replace the oil light switch with a gauge to check the switch is/is not faulty. You may have just a faulty switch. Even a cup of oil goes a LLLLLOOOONNNNGGGG way inside a boat. To replace the rear seal the engine would need to come out but they are a pretty straight forward install so you wouldn't expect too much drama from the job. If you lift the rocker cover off and run the engine you will also see oil coming out of the bushes on the rocker gear. That would give you a visual check that oil is circulating OK. Some engines just take a while to purge all the air out of the system after a filter change and maybe yours is one of those. Good luck Pete

Dunaruna · Aug 23, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Good to hear that your pump problems are over. Ditto Peters' last post. Aldo

tomcatdsl · Aug 24, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Thanks to three of you for your kind help. I still have some clean up to do, but all in good time. I'll get back to you in a day or two. Thanks again! Tom

tomcatdsl · Aug 26, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

An update gentelmen, Cleaned up the bilge to spotless. Ran the engine a bit, and saw quite a bit more oil coming from somewhere, but didn't seem to be coming from the FWH. Layed down on the floor of the bilge with a flash light with engine running to see where it was coming from. Around the fit of the oil filter against the housing! Stopped the engine. Pulled the filter. Found not one, but two rubber seals between filter and housing. That wasn't allowing the filter to seat all the way against the housing, allowing oil to leak around it. Don't know if the extra seal was a left over from the immediately previous filter, or one before that. Took both off and installed new filter with only ONE rubber O ring seal. Refilled crankcase and test ran for 5 min. No obvious leak. Recleaned bilge. Lined it with paper towels and left over night to check for further leaks. We'll see tonight after work if there's anything else leaking. Question. The bilge is now spotless again, but there is a very fine invisible film of oil that feels slippery under the foot on the fiberglass interior of the bilge. What is your best bet for getting rid of that slippery feeling? As long as the engine continues to run cool and there are no more leaks of oil anywhere. I'll coninue to change the oil out every very few hours till there's no more evidence of water contamination, and baby that engine as the weak link in the chain. Logical? Peter, still curious about using diesel oil in place of regular motor oil. You're sure about that? I'll sure give it a try, just want reassurance I guess. I'd like to be sure I'm doing all I can to rid the interior of the engine of rust damage it may have been subjected to while it was exposed to water contamination. One goofy thing happened last night. All of a sudden the fuel gage on that engine stopped working and it had been working perfectly. I am starting to think this old girl is just toying with me!

Maybe I need to call in an exorcist!

I'm sure I'll have tons more questions as time goes along. Thanks again for your help guys! Tom

Peter J Fraser · Aug 26, 2004

Re: volvo penta 170 overheating

Hi Tom, Thats good news indeed but dont panic because your not the first person that would have been caught out with the old double seal trick. I know you will be watching REAL CLOSE next time. Yep I have used Diesel Multi-grade oils for prob 20 years in every thing we have run in the fleet at work and my own personal cars. They are Heavy Duty oils and if you look at the labels on any of the Premium Gasoline blends you will see most if not all the top products are DIESEL RATED ie CF, CG, CH, CI as well as the ordinary gasoline ratings of SF and up etc. Mobil 1 is a good example of this as Lubedude would say. Diesel oil will help clean the inside of your engine because of the extra detergents and dispersants that are in the blend of additives. It is not advisable to use it in an old engine that is full of heavy sludge as this will wash away and very quickly block the oil filter. Any engine that has moderate hours and is in sound condition would usually be OK. When I get a new vehicle with an uncertain history, a little dirty inside, I will service it with filter and oil, but only run it for a 1000km or so and then drop the oil again, replace the filter and run to about 3 - 4000 km and repeat the process again. After that I run out to 10000 km for regular changes. Ive not experienced any problems but it is a matter of personal choice.

Peter

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