Utah...Nice Move Judge!

[deputydawg]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

Well said Chopper. That is why I keep coming back here, everyone is so decent and nice to each other. I wish everyone could be more like that. <br />We all in this country need to learn to be more tolerant to everything. We don't have to accept things or like some things, but we should allow others to like and live the way they want.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

Exactly It's like the sayings "Live and let live" or "Live and let die". Maybe these people need a hobby or something?

 

[QC]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

Chopper and ddawg,<br /><br />There are a couple of issues though that brings the gay rights thing to the forefront and causes some to react strongly although they may still be "tolerant", which I consider myself. I wish no ill will on any decent person. And by decent I mean treating others decently, not some description of moral behavior . . .<br /><br />The issues stem from a push by some activist gays to claim that there is no difference between gays and straights, none. There is no "correct" use of the equipment, so there is no "incorrect" use. This is clearly false (although I also don't care what you do with your equipment privately). The reason that some feel this sameness push is so important is to allow for the same benefits and social acceptance of gay marriage as heterosexual marriage. However, governmental acceptance and approval is intended to be for the good of society and I know of nothing that society gets from sanctioning gay marriage, literally nothing. Society does benefit from sanctioning the healthy upbringing of the next generation, which in my opinion includes love from both a mother AND a father. Please don't point out that there are very poor heterosexual parents. That is obvious. Are there great homes with a single parent? Absolutely, I came from one. The point is that society should be about the ideal. And the ideal environment for children is one that includes both a loving mother and father, so that is what society should sanction. BTW, I don't think the previous statement is debatable unless you have a selfish agenda. If the discussion is about what is best for children, this is pretty simple.<br /><br />The other reason people get cranked up about this is that many liberals believe that this philosophy of no difference is important to teach to children. Well, IMHO, public schools should teach the 3 R's and not much else, maybe some History as long as it is not revisionist. It is not up to anybody else to "teach" my children about sex, let alone gay sex. Children should be allowed to remain innocent as long as possible. They will grow up just fine without state sanctioned indoctrination into what some call tolerance.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

Well you touched on one thing that I truly despise, politics. I really believe that political groups and political agenda closely emulate the followings and teachings of cults, just in a somehow acceptable manner. All they seem to do is influence peoples emotions and thoughts, and from this stems radical activist groups. That's where radical gay activist groups stem from. I suppose we'd live too much of a stress-free, happy life without them, and we just can't have that can we? People say third world countries suffer because they have no government, they have no organization, etc, etc. But I bet if you look a little closer at the relationships between the people, you'd find a very happy, pure existance. I don't know, I'll probably get flack for any of the above statements, some may even try and put a political party twist on them and say it's a very Liberal, or Democratic, or Republican way to think, I say keep that to yourself and don't bother me with that kind of influence.<br /><br />I totally agree that more emphasis needs to be put on children and how they are raised. They are the future. I agree that they need to be brought up in a loving, caring and nurturing home, by loving, caring and nurturing people. It shouldn't matter though whether or not the child has two mothers or two fathers or one father or one mother or a mother and father. A heterosexual child can grow up to become a doctor from a gay household. A gay child can grow up to become a doctor from a heterosexual household. History has dictated this. So saying that the perfect recipe for a child's well being and future social status in based on a loving mother and father, is ludacris. I'm sorry Quietcat, I really do respect you and everyone else on this board, and I respect your thoughts and beliefs and values, as I do with everyone else and was raised to do... your second paragraph just contained a few very narrow minded statements.<br /><br />On the other hand I do understand where you're coming from, I understand where your statements originate from, and I do agree that people FORCING their lifestyle on others is just as wrong as FORCING beliefs on people. People are trying to gain acceptance from all the wrong places, and at one point or another it will stir the pot. <br /><br />I guess it isn't enough for me or anyone else to say that people have to start living their lives and not worrying about others so much... that statement really should be concluded and qualified by saying that people have to stop influencing others and influencing that kind of behaviour to begin with. It's the threats of change that these activist groups bring about that cause other activist groups to step in. In hindsight, politics aren't the cause of the fire, more like the fuel to keep it burning.

 

[QC]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

I appreciate a reasonably well though out response as well as your passion. But I do have take issue with a couple of your points.<br /><br />

Originally posted by SuzukiChopper:<br />So saying that the perfect recipe for a child's well being and future social status in based on a loving mother and father, is ludacris. <br />

Pleass reread my post. I didn't say perfect and also didn't mean it. I said the ideal. And for some reason this evokes all types of reaction because defining better and best are to some intolerant . . . Take some time and rethink about it without jumping to conclusions. Unless you believe that men and women are identical, then I would submit that children do benefit from the influences of BOTH a mother and a father. If you accept that there is a benefit and that influences from both are beneficial, then it should be acceptable to say that the "best" combination is one of each. My wife does things and teaches things to my children that I don't even think of. Likewise when she considers things that I share with them. It is so obvious to me that it blows my mind that there is even discussion. Again, I don't believe that one of each should be mandated, but it should be at least acknowledged and promoted. <br /><br />

Originally posted by SuzukiChopper:<br /> I guess it isn't enough for me or anyone else to say that people have to start living their lives and not worrying about others so much... that statement really should be concluded and qualified by saying that people have to stop influencing others and influencing that kind of behaviour to begin with.

I totally dissagree. We ALL have a responsibility to reward behavior that enhances our society and we also need to condemn evil everywhere we see it. The problem with "whatever floats your boat" is that sometimes the boat you float is not seaworthy . . . Please don't react "that of course evil shoudl be comndemned". The fact is that many believe (including a majority of our young people) that it is wrong to judge anyone or anything. This is not only false, but dangerous. Again, there are ideas and behavior that are better and best. It is our duty as a supposedly intelligent society and organism to use our powers of reason to debate these issues and truly promote the ideas that benefit the whole as opposed to the individual.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

Originally posted by Quietcat:<br /> Pleass reread my post. I didn't say perfect and also didn't mean it. I said the ideal. And for some reason this evokes all types of reaction because defining better and best are to some intolerant . . . Take some time and rethink about it without jumping to conclusions. Unless you believe that men and women are identical, then I would submit that children do benefit from the influences of BOTH a mother and a father. If you accept that there is a benefit and that influences from both are beneficial, then it should be acceptable to say that the "best" combination is one of each. My wife does things and teaches things to my children that I don't even think of. Likewise when she considers things that I share with them. It is so obvious to me that it blows my mind that there is even discussion. Again, I don't believe that one of each should be mandated, but it should be at least acknowledged and promoted.

<br />Yup I have to agree with this. Having the extra little bit of qualification helped. In your original it came across as you saying that there is no room for parenting by two people of the same sex. I do agree that there are things men teach a child that most women cannot and vise versa. In this sense this is the ideal situation.<br /><br />

Originally posted by Quietcat:<br /><br /> I totally dissagree. We ALL have a responsibility to reward behavior that enhances our society and we also need to condemn evil everywhere we see it. The problem with "whatever floats your boat" is that sometimes the boat you float is not seaworthy . . . Please don't react "that of course evil shoudl be comndemned". The fact is that many believe (including a majority of our young people) that it is wrong to judge anyone or anything. This is not only false, but dangerous. Again, there are ideas and behavior that are better and best. It is our duty as a supposedly intelligent society and organism to use our powers of reason to debate these issues and truly promote the ideas that benefit the whole as opposed to the individual.

I agree it's dangerous, not totally wrong though, to take a passive attitude and not judge anyone or anything. I do firmly believe you cannot judge GROUPS of people, which too many people do, rather the individuals within those groups need to be judged for what they offer. I would be willing to bet that 60% of individuals within a group have no ill intentions and do offer up something society can use to better themselves, unfortunately the other 40% are the most outspoken and are the trouble makers and are what cause the rest to be judged. <br /><br />A debate like this is almost worthless, other than allowing others to see what you believe, value and think. We can both be blue in the face, and argueably do agree on some points, but we aren't going to change anything in the grand scheme of things. Like I said, I truly do respect you, and with some clarification agree with 98% of what you said, however I don't feel we're making a difference on the world we're surrounded by <br /><br />PS. sorry about the horrible formatting. It sucks

 

[QC]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

Originally posted by SuzukiChopper:<br /> Yup I have to agree with this. Having the extra little bit of qualification helped. In your original it came across as you saying that there is no room for parenting by two people of the same sex. I do agree that there are things men teach a child that most women cannot and vise versa. In this sense this is the ideal situation.<br />

Cool and thanks.<br /><br />

Originally posted by SuzukiChopper:<br /> I do firmly believe you cannot judge GROUPS of people, which too many people do, rather the individuals within those groups need to be judged for what they offer.

Agree. Group-think sucks too.<br /><br />

Originally posted by SuzukiChopper:<br /> A debate like this is almost worthless, other than allowing others to see what you believe, value and think. We can both be blue in the face, and argueably do agree on some points, but we aren't going to change anything in the grand scheme of things.

Good, intelligent, fair debate is never worthless.

 

[achris]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

Good, intelligent, fair debate is never worthless.

I've always worked by the theory "It's my way, or the highway!"

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

good, fair intelligent debate keeps peoples on their toes

 

[deputydawg]

Re: Utah...Nice Move Judge!

I don't know what I feel about the gay couples raising children. On the one side, what will it hurt in todays society? It will not MAKE the child gay, people are what they are. In the case of a true homosexual it is not a choice. It may damage the child socially, but people accept this more now. It would just depend on how the children are raised, not by whom.<br />I totally disgaree with gay marriage. Marriage is a blessed sacrement that should not be toyed with. It is a holy union between a man and a woman. By extending this to gay couples we are stepping on Gods law. In no way should mans law take precidence over Gods law in my opinion. Most do not share this opinion and think religion should change with the times, but this I disagree with. <br />I also feel that schools should teach our children what they need to know for education, the 4r's. It should be up to the parents to teach everything else. Society today expects the schools to teach right from wrong, sex ed, everything that should be done at home. <br />I also place the gay rights idea in the same place as public displays of religion. Around here there has been a long drawn out fight over a church displaying the 10 commandments in public. Also a courthouse displaying the commandments which it has been doing for over 100 years. We are being forced to take these displays down and erect gay rights displays in some cases. My opinion is if you don't like seeing the religious displays don't look. If you don't like the gay dispalys, don't look. <br />The absolute worst position to be in today as far as being heard and having rights is a white heterosexual male. If your a "minority", female, elderly, handicapped, or now homosexual you get all of the rights extended and enforced. The "normal" white male is now at the bottom of the pile in some cases.