Unable to start and no water out the telltale

[oldboat1]

1990 OMC 9.9 10 14 15 20 25 28 30 35 HP Johnson Evinrude Service Manual 507871 | eBay

1990 OMC Johnson Outboards, Evinrude Outboards Service Manual9.9HP, 10HP, 14HP, 15HP, 20HP, 25HP, 28HP, 30HP, 35HP Models.Item No. P/N 507871 printed in 1989 by Outboard Marine Corporation.

www.ebay.com

1989 OMC 507754 Johnson Evinrude 9.9 10 14 15 20 25 28 30 35 HP Service Manual | eBay

1989 OMC Johnson Outboards, Evinrude Outboards "CE" Service Manual9.9HP 9.9 HP, 10HP 10 HP, 14HP 14 HP, 15HP 15 HP, 20HP 20 HP, 25HP 25 HP, 28HP 28 HP, 30HP 30 HP, 35HP 35 HP Models.Item No. P/N 507754 printed in 1988 by Outboard Marine Corporation.

www.ebay.com

not cheap, but perhaps one of these.

 

[ntirado]

Thank you for the manual recs. I purchased the SELOC book and started reading a bit. I am looking for the owners manual (the one that would accompany the motor when purchased).

 

[Sea Rider]

Up so far, after the water pump, the carb has been rebuilt, the fuel pump, spark plugs and thermostat has been replaced, did the motor started flawlessly or still with same previous issues ?

Don't need to run a motor just on salt water to achieve reduced salted water passages, fresh water has their own contaminants that will build scale within the water passages during repetitive on off cycles over time. Which was the internal thermostat's housing condition when removed, had scale, foreign particle build ups ?

Happy Boating​

 

[ntirado]

Still unable to start. There was a bit of scale inside the thermostat housing, but not excessive.

Are the 2 issues (intermittent water out the telltale previously and the inability to start it now) related? I did not run the motor for any significant time the few times it ran previously, so I hope it did not overheat.

Last night I had my wife look at the plugs while I pulled the rope and she saw spark on both and I confirmed gas is flowing into the carb...So we have confirmed 2 of 3 requirements (spark, fuel, air).

I wonder if I am not following the start procedures correctly. Should I try start fluid? I've read opinions both against and in favor of this approach

Hoping the motor is not dead for good

 

[racerone]

You need that elusive 4th item for a 2 stroke to run.-----Crankcase compression !!

 

[tphoyt]

Starting fluid is not a good idea.
The only oil you get is from the oil in the gas. At this point you really need to check compression.

 

[Sea Rider]

Bought many moons back a second hand 96 Evi 15 HP in super mint external and internal condition. As I like running wot powering light applications, next day begun behaving exact same as yours. Cleaned lower leg's water intake screens, changed impeller and thermostar with no avail, the isuue continued.

So decided to drop the cylinder head and install a new head gasket, when done the crankcase's, cylinder head and exhaust cover water passages were found highly salt crusted, this was supposed to be a low run hour salt motor which ended in being a Pandora Motor.

The cylinder head was found slightly warpped when checked its flatness with a large metal ruler, definitedly the last owner had an apparent small overheat along head gasket being shot surely due to lower leg's water intakes blockage without being aware of it as no ones looks what's going on rear of motor to check if was peeing right or not.

After having the head flattened out at a machine shop and before installing a new head gasket, all the internal mentioned water passages were mechanically cleaned to impeccable condition including their mating surfaces. Torqued head and exhaust gaskets to specs with a torque wrench which it's a must do and voila.

As we don't know the current head gasket condition checking compression is relative, if the head gasket has lost the torque value with which was torqued at the factory due to heat compression or if having already a dried, hardened, or burnt gasket a compresion test will show minimum compression loss provided that cylinders, piston and piston rigs are in excellent shape, whereas a blown head gasket will show way much less compression numbers.

If wanting to have that nice motor operative soon, would suggest to remove the cylinder head, clean all water passages and install a new head gasket well torqued to factory specs the issue is : are you inclined to DIY works ? If you have found small portions of scale in the thermostat and thermo's housing while boating in fresh waters expect to find huge more inside the crankcase which its not letting the powerhead to cool properly as when the motor was taken out of the box when brand new...

BTW, such smoke sympthom has nothing to do with not following the correct starting procedures....

Happy Boating​

 

[oldboat1]

Last night I had my wife look at the plugs while I pulled the rope and she saw spark on both and I confirmed gas is flowing into the carb...So we have confirmed 2 of 3 requirements (spark, fuel, air).

No offense to your wife who sounds like a good sport, but that asessment is nonsense. You have not done any useful testing, as far as I can tell, and would be better served by taking it into a reputable shop and paying a thousand to have it put into running condition. Learn from the mechanics, and take on the next maintenance yourself. It's a motor with a good reputation and is in demand. You can get your money out of it when it is time to sell.

 

[Sea Rider]

To clarify my previous post with pics. If after changing impeller, thermostat the motor starts but overheats, smokes through the tell-tale, with no water being peed t's a clear indication that said motor surely has internal scale build ups inside the crankcase's water passages regardless of the current head's 22 old gasket condition.

To rule that out : (1) insert a stiff wire, red cannula, the ones found in carb cleaners, WD-40 cans up tube several times in a row to clean it up if in need. Remove the thermo from its housing, bolt lid back on, remove the flushing port's nut and screw an adapter on top exhaust cover with an attached garden hose as seen.​

run fresh water, if with a strong pressure the better. If after cleaning the peeing tube, the motor pees strong, so-so or crappy will indicate how much scale formations is going on inside the water passages that will need to be looked after, the sooner the better.

If you take that motor to a reputable shop to have it internally cleaned as its a time demanding job charged per hour work expect a huge shop bill which will blow your budget far away guaranteed...

Happy Boating​

 

[ntirado]

All: I am so appreciative of all the feedback. Thank you for taking the time to entertain my questions and help me troubleshoot this issue. I contacted the previous owner and it was suggested that I may be flooding the motor by opening the choke for too long when trying to start it.

Any thoughts on this as a possible explanation for my issues?

On a different note I hope to be able to get the compression test done this weekend. I will post results as possible.

 

[tphoyt]

To much choke will flood the engine.
see post #11
Compression test will tell us a lot.
if you don’t have good compression you can pull that cord all day long and get nowhere.

 

[racerone]

???----When pulling the knob out the choke flapper is CLOSED for cold starting.-----Why do you say---" opening choke for too long " ---here ?

 

[oldboat1]

Buy one of the oem manuals shown, or look for a cheaper one. OMC is (was) the manufacturer of Johnson/Evinrude.

 

[Sea Rider]

OK, let's start from the very basic. This is the starting procedure OMC calls for said motor.

Some issues to look over :
-When priming the fuel bulb's the stamped arrow must be pointed upwards till the bulb rest firm, not stone hard. Is the carb having fuel spills issues when the bulb is primed firm yes, no ?

-Check that the fuel delivery tank to fuel pump flows unaltered, to check that remove the fuel line going to the fuel pump's entrance, place a container there, with arrow pointing as indicated press the bulb several times in a row and check if the flow is constant or not, if not, the fuel line could be clogged somewhere ?

Start the motor as indicated by the Owner's Manual, 2 hard rope pulls with carb choked will suffice, push knob fully in, set tiller to starting position and crank till the motor starts, let warm for some minutes that's with a healthy running motor.

As there's always a but, if the motor has been smoking white through the tell tale or any other water indicator around the crankcase, that motor won't be possible to rope start not even following the starting procedure to the letter if the head gasket matches the lower posted pic.

Need to know the compression numbers indicate by the manufacturer to compared them to the achieved compression numbers shown on the dial with throttle resting at wide open along with at least 5 hard rope pulls. For me such test doesn't indicate much, will indicate much if having an already shot head gasket, a warped head or a combo of both awful situations ?

Being such head gasket that old, don't expect to be doing its homework right as when out of the box, compare a new one against an already shot one.
​

Is there a white line formation visibly seen around the cylinder head gasket contour, yes, no ?

Happy Boating​

 

[ntirado]

Hi all: When I said "opening the choke for too long" I meant pulling the rope too many times with the choke engaged as the previous owner said that would flood the engine.

Compression test shows 110 PSI both cylinders with the motor cold (used an OEM compression test kit -57138- from AutoZone).

Today I have taken the carb apart (again) and noticed a small kink in the small internal tubing that goes from the bottom of the float chamber up to a white plastic housing with a small metal tube on the side. I corrected this issue and cleaned all parts with carb cleaner and dried them with compressed air.

I can now start the motor (still with considerable effort) and when running water is flowing from the telltale. However, when I let off the throttle or start pushing the choke to the off position (pushing the choke knob in), the motor stalls.

I hope this is moving in the right direction, but it seems more adjustments are required to get this puppy barking again.

Thank you all for your kind replies, questions and advise. Much appreciated.

 

[tphoyt]

Thanks for the compression values. They sound ok and now that’s out of the mix. When you rebuilt the carb did you remove the welch plugs and clean the very small passages? How many turns out did you set your needles after reassembled?
Sounds like your getting close.

 

[ntirado]

Although there was one in the carb kit I purchased, I did not see one on the carburetor. I kept the part (because I’m a pack rat). Where is this supposed to be located/installed? I did clean/inspect/air dried every nook and cranny I saw.

I set the slow speed needle all the way in and then backed it out 1 1/4 turn.

 

[Grub54891]

Fuel pump issue?

 

[tphoyt]

Sorry now that I’m thinking about it you probably have the carb with the plastic top correct? For some reason I was thinking it was an 85 in which case the plug would be right on the top in plain sight. Try turning the needle out another’s 1/4 for a full 1 1/2 turns and start from there.

 

[ntirado]

Fuel pump is new (although it could be a defective one). The carb top is a black plastic material. I will certainly try moving the SS needle as recommended
Thank you again all. I have learned a lesson t these few days (and my entire body aches from pulling on that rope!!!)

Can’t wait to get the boat running so my lovely wife and I can take a ride in the beautiful wilderness of our rivers.