Trying to make sense of RPMs

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
So, I took the rig out for the first time today this season. Been doing lots of research about prop size and crossing all of my T's and dotting my I's. At this point I am confident I'm running the correct prop size after consulting folks in the prop forum. 14.5x19 with 5.7L 210HP Alpha 1 Gen 2, 1.62 gear ratio.

What I'm confused about is that my WOT is said to be 4200-4600, yet when I open the throttle up it continues to 5k+ if I let it go. Shouldn't the RPMs level out at the max of 4600 if this is what the engine is rated as? I even called the Mercruiser customer service line, gave them the serial number of my engine, and they said that it is in fact the 210hp version and not the 260hp LX version, which maxes out at 4800. Doesn't make sense.
 

cr2k

Captain
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
3,730
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

1. your tach may be set to 6 cyl. Look for switch (rotary) on the back of the unit.

2. you are way under propped.

3. Your prop or coupler is slipping.
 

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Interesting. I'll have to check that tach setting. As far as being underpropped, according to hwsiii, the prop I'm running is well within spec when checking against the formula. I also called Mercruiser to ask about this, and they verified the prop size. I guess this is adding to the confusion.
 

Alumarine

Captain
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
3,697
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

WOT is the maximum safe RPM for the engine.

It is capable of revving much higher if the wrong prop is installed.
 

cr2k

Captain
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
3,730
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Interestingly enough I have run both a 19p and a 17p on my boat (listed on sig line) and the only difference is the 17p uses more gas. Absolutely no difference in performance, speed, RPMs, anything even towing a tube. Weird for sure.
 

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Interestingly enough I have run both a 19p and a 17p on my boat (listed on sig line) and the only difference is the 17p uses more gas. Absolutely no difference in performance, speed, RPMs, anything even towing a tube. Weird for sure.

That IS interesting. In which case, sounds like changing the prop is not going to do much for me here. Maybe it is infact that tach setting. Everything is stock, so I'm not sure why that would have ever been changed from the manufacturer.
 

bomar76

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
1,963
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Interestingly enough I have run both a 19p and a 17p on my boat (listed on sig line) and the only difference is the 17p uses more gas. Absolutely no difference in performance, speed, RPMs, anything even towing a tube. Weird for sure.

If the 19 is Aluminum and the 17 is Stainless and the stainless prop is a slightly different diameter that could explain that issue.
 

hwsiii

Commander
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
2,639
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Boss, since we never changed props, here are our options.

I did check this last season. I was running between 4500 and 4600RPMs at 49/50MPH. I also just got off the phone with MerCruiser. They told me that according to my serial number, I have the standard 5.7L, which is 210HP with 1.62 gear ratio. Looks like the guy that sold it to me either lied or was not properly informed.

There is one of two things happening here:

1. You gave me the correct RPM in our previous conversation and your prop now has a spun hub. To find out, take the prop off and use a paint stick to mark across the hub and the metal, then open the motor up at takeoff and go back and take the prop off and see if the marks still line up, if not then the hub is spun.

What I'm confused about is that my WOT is said to be 4200-4600, yet when I open the throttle up it continues to 5k+ if I let it go.
You are now saying that it turns over 5,000 RPM.

2. You remembered the wrong numbers from last year and we need to change props.

Prop Slip
DYLBOSSpropSlip.jpg




H
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

I am going to move this over to the prop forum. mar c is helping clarify something that you need to make sure you understand. What determines RPM is the load on the engine, in this case a propeller. The engine doesn't know it was designed to run in that window of 4200 - 4600 RPM. It doesn't care. The only exception to this is a possible rev limiter which is usually set above 5200. The engine will go as fast as the load will allow it. Too much load (weight or pitch or both) and you will not reach the recommended RPM. Too little load (too light or low pitch) and the engine will push past it's peak power because it can . . . This is about horsepower available vs. horsepower required. if your tach is right, you have more horsepower available than required to turn that propeller against the load (your boat + speed).

Also, and hwsii will confirm this, all the calcs can do is get you close. All Mercruiser can do is get you close. As long as all of the data is correct, the only way to determine the absolutely right combination is to test on the water. You must:

A) confirm the tach is right.

B) load her up as you normally would

C) test her then get us the info.

All data needs to be absolutely dead nuts correct or all conclusions will be wrong.

Unless your engine is running too good, then this thread still belongs in the prop section ;)
 

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Thanks Hwsii and QC. To answer your question Hwsii, I think selection 2 might be at hand here in all honesty. Spun hub? What does that mean?

I will go out and get all the info needed this week. I'm a little nervous to just let the RPMs spin up and up and up. Am I risking damaging the engine performing this test or decreasing the lifespan? I guess I'm confused at what the actual WOT numbers will be if the RPMs just keep going. At what point should I take the reading? Also, what's the best way to determine if the tach is correct?
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Check the tach first!! Do you have a friend or a neighbor or relative that is a mechanic? Car, motorcycle, boat, doesn't really matter. If so tell them you need to verify that your tach is reading right. Do check in the back of the tach for a switch. Very common problem.

How are you getting your speed numbers? GPS?

I don't believe a spun hub would also yield 50 MPH.
 

hwsiii

Commander
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
2,639
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Boss, try the paint test first, and stop the engine from running more than 5,000 RPM. It means the rubber insert in the hub is not holding as it should.



H
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

I just reviewed the other thread. I am getting negative slip with 4500 RPM and 50 MPH . . .

I would be blown away if this prop was slipping and reaching 50 MPH. And I am getting negative slip numbers which I Never believe; even 3% is too good as hwsiii notes. Personally, I don't believe any of the numbers now. Boss, you need to start over ;)
 

hwsiii

Commander
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
2,639
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

QC, I think you are probably right, but I have seen a spun hub in the past get over 50 MPH before it kept turning higher RPM, that is why I asked him to check for a spun hub.

This why it is so important that I have the right numbers to work with, because if the numbers i get are wrong, then my numbers will be wrong as well.



H
 

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Thanks guys. I will try the paint test and make sure the tach is accurate, somehow. I will most certainly get accurate numbers from GPS and not let it get over 5k.

I can tell you right now that my original numbers were incorrect (sorry about that). When I tested things yesterday, I was getting 4800 RPMs at 45MPH (not GPS), but RPMs still climbing and speed as well. Cut it off at that point.

I still don't understand what the "spun hub" thing means. Can one of you briefly explain? Thanks.
 

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Ok. So, I didn't do the paint test yet, but I got accurate GPS speed and RPM numbers. I capped it a 4700 RPMs (could have gone farther) and hit 36.2 Knots / 41.6 MPH .

Oh, one other thing. I did check the tach, and there is a left and right setting. Not labeled at all. It is set to the right setting. Have no idea what that means. I'm assuming left 6 Cyl, and right 8 Cyl ?
 

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

hwsiii, I just applied my numbers to your formula. It looks like I might be at 20% slip! I also read your post about how to rectify this. I've heard that I can lose power out of the hole if going to a 4 blade prop. Should I stick with a 3 blade and change the pitch? If so, what pitch do you recommend? Also what is meant by the RPMs dropping by changing the pitch? Does that mean the WOT RPMs and max safe for the engine change?
 

hwsiii

Commander
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
2,639
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Boss, before we go any further you need to get a mechanics tach and check your maximum RPM at WOT, because right now I am questioning how many RPM you are really turning. And if they are not right then I will recommend the wrong prop and pitch. Also you say it will turn over 5,000 RPM if you don't stop it, so run it up to 5,000 RPM with the mechanics tach and see what the other tach shows.



H
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

Also what is meant by the RPMs dropping by changing the pitch? Does that mean the WOT RPMs and max safe for the engine change?
You're still kinda missing this deal . . . the WOT range and power output are determined by the manufacturer's design. The combination of components in your engine makes it's best power from 4200 - 4600. So let's say you put a 17" pitch prop on it, you weren't worried about blowing it up and you went for a full blast, WOT run. Since the engine and boat combo can easily overcome the 17 inch pitch (think of it like a lower gear), the engine will rev up past that range easily. Maybe it would reach 5500 RPM before it either blew up or ran out of power.

Since the power band is between 4200 and 4600, something needs to change. There is only two real ways to remedy this, go up in prop pitch which will make the boat go farther for each revolution which requires more power or change the gear ratio to make the prop turn faster than it is now which will make the boat go farther for each revolution of the engine. Since it's cheaper to change pitch than gear ratios (and it's the right way to do it), most people change pitch. Your engine appears to be reving past the range with a 19 inch pitch. Assuming the tach is right, you need to go to say a 21 inch pitch so that the boat goes a little farther which each revolution which requires more power which will lug the engine a little more and hopefully bring the RPM down to where it makes the most power: the WOT range.

Imagine if you left every thing the same and put in an 800 horsepower Nascar engine. Assuming everything would stay together it would take your 19 inch pitch prop and try to get to it's 9000 RPM designed peak power point. If it couldn't it would stop revving when it ran out of power (let's say 7723 RPM) or it would rev past that 9000 RPM peak point if it could. It would either blow up at some point higher than 9000, or it would run out of power, because above that designed in peak of 9000 RPM power begins to drop off.

The ONLY way to get the engine to achieve it's peak power point or range is to play with propellers until you find those that only let it get into the window. Not under the window, or past the window, but in the window at WOT.

Think about riding a bicycle with multiple gears up a hill. If you have to pedal too hard and too slow of pedaling to be comfortable, you shift into a lower gear (lower pitch prop), or if your feet are winging along so fast but you are barely moving then you shift into a higher gear (higher pitch prop). You do that to match your body's comfortable RPM for the steepness of the hill and the strength in your legs. Sort of your very own WOT RPM range . . . Since water is flat and you only get one gear (gear ratio) you have to find a prop that gets your legs (the engine) going up and down at the right speed so you don't have a heart attack (deep lug) or spin until your feet fly off the pedals (over speed) . . .
 

DYLBOSS

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
161
Re: Trying to make sense of RPMs

hwsiii / QC .........thanks a lot for the great information! It is MUCH appreciated. I will try to go up in pitch. I don't have access to a mechanic's tach, nor do I want to drain my wallet doing so. I guess the best bet is to just try QC's suggestion of going up in pitch and see what happens, recalculate my numbers, and go from there. Do you guys just suggest I go up in pitch or go with a 4 blade like you (hwsiii) suggest in your prop slip thread?
 
Top