Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
This has come up a couple times in the last couple of weeks so I thought I’d toss it out here. I doubt the challenge will amount to much because the American judicial system is phenomenally corrupt. There is money to be had with traffic tix, no judge is going to allow that potential income to be threatened.<br /><br />Challenging The Entire California Legal System<br /><br />Chico News & Review<br />January 19, 2006<br /><br />A SPEEDY TRIAL<br /><br />Most people who get a speeding ticket just pay the thing and forget about it. A few people will even fight the ticket, taking the matter before a judge and usually hoping the officer who wrote the ticket will fail to show up. But as far as we know, only Don Bird, 71, of Rancho Tehama has had the nerve to challenge the entire California legal system over an instance where he admits he was breaking the law. Bird stopped by our office after lobbying an aide of Assemblyman Doug LaMalfa, R-Richvale, to enact legislation that would enable ticketed drivers to have a trial by jury. Bird, who admits he was going 71 in a 55 mph zone when he got his ticket, recently used his own amateur legal skills to bring a Second Amendment case all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. <br /><br /> Why do you want a jury trial for a speeding ticket?<br /><br />I'm arguing the fact that the Seventh Amendment says I have that right ... if you choose not to have that right that's your choice.<br />There's going to be a certain percentage of people that are going to pay the ticket and run back to wherever they came from. Or they'll mail their money in. ... They'll be a handful of people that will go to court that day and try to argue their way out of it. They'll lose, 99 times out of 100. All I'm asking for is that I want to tell my story to [a jury], even if it's the same verdict. At least I have my rights given to me. <br /><br />How would it work?<br /><br />I've got the thing figured out. You've got a jury pool, right? Josh and five other people are picked by the judge. [Speaks like a judge] Josh, you're over 18 and you're not a felon – sit down, chair No. 1.<br />You've got six people in there that were picked at 7:30 that morning. They sit there until 12. Say out of 30 tickets that an officer in Corning gives in a day, five or three or one says, "Hey, I've got a choice here." You mark the box. "I want a trial by jury." For those who check the other box, those people would be computer-selected to show up on Tuesday morning instead of Monday morning.<br /> <br />But it’s very hard to get people to do jury duty now, and the courts are clogged with more important things… <br /><br />No, you said a nasty word to me. There's nothing more serious than your rights. We're at the point in our society where people will give up their rights at any expense. As far as inconvenience, I'd say, at a good traffic court, you'd get five minutes, maybe 10. <br />If you come up with four or five excuses why you shouldn't pay the $192, it's an open-court plea bargain, basically. "Yes I was speeding, I was going 72 mph, but my wife was pregnant. My dad just got hit from a falling airplane and I'm rushing to see him in the hospital." There's a thousand excuses. Now, the same excuses the judge hears, I want [the jury] to hear it, and I'm counting on your compassion and your understanding.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Texas allows ticketed persons a jury trial if they ask for it. Don't know, but they may have to wait years to get a court date, and court costs must be astronomical.<br /><br />I couldn't imagine not allowing a charged person a jury trial in the USA if they want one . . . .well, maybe in Kalifornia or Oregon.
 

Kenneth Brown

Captain
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
3,481
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Thats true in most cases JB. I do wonder why the court costs would go up as it tells you what they are on most tickets, or it says its included in the fine.
 

deputydawg

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,607
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

In Nebraska you can only have a jury tgrial for misdemeanors or felonies. Misd. gets a 6 person jury, felonies 12.<br /><br />The court cost of a citation is $43. If you fight it still $43. If it is serious enough for a jury it is still $43. Unless you have the court subpeona witnesses then it goes up a little. It is ridiculous to have a jury trial that can cost over 1,000 a day for a $100 speeding ticket, when most drivers are in fact speeding and lie about it, mistaken about it, or are just too ignorant to know either way.<br /><br />Most people drive down the road all fat dumb and happy, see a cop, hit the brakes, THEN look at the speed. Think hmmm, I am only 7 over, I will be OK. Then when they get a ticket they complain and say that ALL cops are bad and corrupt because THEY broke the law but won't admit it. People never think for a second that they do not get a ticket for the speed traveling when they met the officer. They never think that the speed clocked was 5 seconds earlier before the O.S. factor kicked in and they hit the brakes.<br /><br />Then they say the system is corrupt because when they were breaking the law, no correct that caught speeding and have to pay a fine it is wrong. Well, what should be done? When they are sitting in their yard with their children on a sunday evening and the neighbor kid speeds by they get angry. Never in a second think they too do this, but that of course if DIFFERENT.<br /><br />I think instead of fines they need to be forced to sit through a few hours of looking at photos of car wrecks and hearing officers talk about each wreck. Especially the ones involving speed. <br /><br />Another thing people do not know, and never allow themselves to believe. At least here, the money from fines goes to schools, not the cops, not the cities, not the counties. The school gets their budget supplimented by the fines. If the fine monies add to 100,000 then the money contributed to that school from the state is cut 100,000. People don't want to believe that I myself as an offcier get nothing from tickets. No quota, no free toaster oven, nothing. Even more surprising, most officers don't care a bit if a traffic ticket gets convicted or not.
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 25, 2002
Messages
17,651
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Originally posted by deputydawg:<br />I think instead of fines they need to be forced to sit through a few hours of looking at photos of car wrecks and hearing officers talk about each wreck. Especially the ones involving speed.
Take them to the wrecker yards and let them look at the cars and trucks involved in speeding and drinking accidents. If the blood and skin don't enlighten them, it's a lost cause.
 

dogsdad

Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
1,293
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

It's really all about REVENUE GENERATION anyway. This was included in an email I got from a friend recently:<br /><br /><br />Dallas and the state of Texas will launch a 30-day speeding ticket frenzy. The state estimates that 9 million dollars will be generated in speeding tickets. 1 million will go to pay state troopers and Dallas Police officers overtime. There will be 50 police officers and state troopers in the Metroplex on duty at all times patrolling the 10 main intersections and highways. <br /><br />They are the following: <br /><br />I-35E north and south <br /><br />I-20 east and west <br /><br />75 north and south <br /><br />635 entire loop <br /><br />114 east and west <br /><br />183 east and west <br /><br />175 north and south <br /><br />North Dallas Tollway north and south <br /><br />George Bush Turnpike east and west <br /><br />360 north and south <br /><br /><br />Now 5 mph above the limit can justify a ticket and every officer is supposed to pull a car over and write a ticket every 10 minutes. They have issued 30 brand new unmarked Crown Victoria cruisers and they are bringing all their part timers on full time. If you work in Dallas or the surrounding areas you must take one of these interstates, routes, or parkways. It's up to you how fast you are doing when they do. WBAP-820 AM confirmed all of this yesterday morning.
 

SS MAYFLOAT

Admiral
Joined
May 17, 2001
Messages
6,372
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

No doubt that their are a lot of violators out there. For the last several years, our 40,000+ deaths a year is proof of that. These types of deaths can and should be prevented. Most people focus on deaths by other means, but not the number one preventable killer in this country.<br /><br />Easy math ,4 years since 9/11 @ 40K per year,,,,160,000 people is a tremdous number of citizens that lost their lives.<br /><br />Ohio also allows you to go to trial with a jury for moving violations.
 

Trent

Captain
Joined
Nov 17, 2001
Messages
3,333
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Why not just drive the speed limit? I do. It does not save you that much time but it saves fuel. If everyone would slow down to 55mph. We all could save money. I say bring back the 55mph limit!! "What's in Your Wallet?" :)
 

Nos4r2

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Messages
1,533
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Thing is, speed doesn't kill. It's speed when INAPPROPRIATE that kills. For example, outside a school, in town or on a twisty road with blind corners. Lets face it, there's nothing dangerous about exceeding the speed limit by 30mph on an empty road in the middle of nowhere with half a mile of clear straight road in front of you and a good view of the surounding land-yet people still get ticketed for it.
 

Kenneth Brown

Captain
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
3,481
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Originally posted by Nos4r2:<br /> Thing is, speed doesn't kill. It's speed when INAPPROPRIATE that kills. For example, outside a school, in town or on a twisty road with blind corners. Lets face it, there's nothing dangerous about exceeding the speed limit by 30mph on an empty road in the middle of nowhere with half a mile of clear straight road in front of you and a good view of the surounding land-yet people still get ticketed for it.
Nah, that ain't it either. Its the sudden stop that kills ya.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
4,666
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Originally posted by deputydawg:<br /> In Nebraska you can only have a jury tgrial for misdemeanors or felonies. Misd. gets a 6 person jury, felonies 12.<br /><br />The court cost of a citation is $43. If you fight it still $43. If it is serious enough for a jury it is still $43. Unless you have the court subpeona witnesses then it goes up a little. It is ridiculous to have a jury trial that can cost over 1,000 a day for a $100 speeding ticket, when most drivers are in fact speeding and lie about it, mistaken about it, or are just too ignorant to know either way.<br /><br />Most people drive down the road all fat dumb and happy, see a cop, hit the brakes, THEN look at the speed. Think hmmm, I am only 7 over, I will be OK. Then when they get a ticket they complain and say that ALL cops are bad and corrupt because THEY broke the law but won't admit it. People never think for a second that they do not get a ticket for the speed traveling when they met the officer. They never think that the speed clocked was 5 seconds earlier before the O.S. factor kicked in and they hit the brakes.<br /><br />Then they say the system is corrupt because when they were breaking the law, no correct that caught speeding and have to pay a fine it is wrong. Well, what should be done? When they are sitting in their yard with their children on a sunday evening and the neighbor kid speeds by they get angry. Never in a second think they too do this, but that of course if DIFFERENT.<br /><br />I think instead of fines they need to be forced to sit through a few hours of looking at photos of car wrecks and hearing officers talk about each wreck. Especially the ones involving speed. <br /><br />Another thing people do not know, and never allow themselves to believe. At least here, the money from fines goes to schools, not the cops, not the cities, not the counties. The school gets their budget supplimented by the fines. If the fine monies add to 100,000 then the money contributed to that school from the state is cut 100,000. People don't want to believe that I myself as an offcier get nothing from tickets. No quota, no free toaster oven, nothing. Even more surprising, most officers don't care a bit if a traffic ticket gets convicted or not.
Nothing better than seeing a guy who is secure and happy in his work.<br />In CA we don't have to use the money from traffic fines for our schools, whe have the Lottery. :eek:
 

kenimpzoom

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
4,807
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Originally posted by Nos4r2:<br /> Thing is, speed doesn't kill. It's speed when INAPPROPRIATE that kills. For example, outside a school, in town or on a twisty road with blind corners. Lets face it, there's nothing dangerous about exceeding the speed limit by 30mph on an empty road in the middle of nowhere with half a mile of clear straight road in front of you and a good view of the surounding land-yet people still get ticketed for it.
I agree Nos, speed doesnt kill. Stupidity does.<br /><br />Driving 90 MPH in the rain is stupid. Driving 90 mph at night while drunk is stupid. Driving 90 mph on a long divided highway is perfectly safe.<br /><br />Ken
 

AzMeadMan

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
129
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Driving 90 mph anywhere is crazy, unless everyone else is driving at the same speed. The limit is set so everyone is on the same pace. It is set so that we have some time to react to someone else's actions. <br /><br />If everyone followed standard driving laws and practices, driving would be a lot easier. They don't so we have the mess we have now. They fine you MONEY because in todays America, that is what gets your attention.
 

gonefishie

Commander
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Messages
2,624
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

<br />quote:<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Originally posted by Nos4r2:<br />Thing is, speed doesn't kill. It's speed when INAPPROPRIATE that kills. For example, outside a school, in town or on a twisty road with blind corners. Lets face it, there's nothing dangerous about exceeding the speed limit by 30mph on an empty road in the middle of nowhere with half a mile of clear straight road in front of you and a good view of the surounding land-yet people still get ticketed for it. <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />I agree Nos, speed doesnt kill. Stupidity does.<br /><br />Driving 90 MPH in the rain is stupid. Driving 90 mph at night while drunk is stupid. Driving 90 mph on a long divided highway is perfectly safe.<br /><br />
Thank you! that's what I've been saying all along STUPIDITY is the cause. 55mph on a two lanes hwy is just way too slow. Just like gun don't kill people, people kill people. I'm not pro-gun or anything but that's what I believes.
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Statistically, the faster you drive, the safe the journey. I forget the numbers but most of the fatal accidents happen below freeway speed, almost all accidents happen below something like 35mph, and within 3 miles of home.<br /><br />Saw a show on German TV about Germany’s free-for-all autobahn. It is very safe, but it is also built for speed, different than our roads. They have very few accidents, but when one does happen it’s pretty messy, there is a lot of scraping and scrubbing to clean it up.
 

deputydawg

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,607
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Glad I am not breaking traffic laws in Texas the way it sounds. <br /><br />I agree that speed is really not that big of a deal if one can guarantee nobody else is on the road, including animals. Also excluding vehicle defects. Deer cause a little damage at 90mph...have a patrol car that was evidence of that.<br /><br />I won't get too excited about writing tickets on empty highways. Only if there is other traffic around. <br /><br />The main pronlem witrh speed is #1 not everyone is speeding the same. Some going 50 some going 90 just don't mix.<br />#2 other drivers see a vehicle coming when they enter an intersection. They judge the distance away of that vehicle, assume they are traveling within the speed limits and either pass or enter the roadway or whatever. By time the see the other vehicle is driving faster then it is too late. <br />#3 too many people think they know how to handle their vehicle at high speeds but can't. In experienced drivers don't know that doubling your speed more than triples your stopping distance. Higher speed reduces traction. Higher speed means longer reaction distance. <br /><br />For an excperienced driver it is not a real big deal speeding a little. They have enough experience to know the hazards of speeding. <br /><br />Almost every driver has never considered one point though. On a 50 mile trip the difference between 60 and 75 is only a few minutes.
 

Manipulator

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
743
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

If its not all about money then how come an attorney can convert a 120mph ticket into a $300 parking ticket? IMO its all about the money.
 

Terry Olson

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
415
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Here in Minnesota you can have a jury trial for any offense deemed a "crime", which is any offense which could result in your incarceration. A speeding ticket cannot and is considered an "offense", but not a crime. If you don't pay the fine or appear in court they issue a warrant which does not authorize the police to actually arrest you and they revoke your driver's license. <br /><br />We have a specific statute that says that departments cannot require their officers to write tickets. I can receive lower scores on my annual evaluation if I don't write tickets but I more than make up for it arresting actual criminals so my evaluations have never suffered.<br /><br />I don't know how revenues are divided in other states, but here in Minnesota very little goes back to the city so it's not a money maker - which is how it should be. In some places there is a financial incentive for departments to write citations. This is nothing more than a tax being imposed under the guise of public safety.<br /><br />I know a cop, not a trooper whose primary responsiblity is traffic enforcment mind you, who writes more than 4,000 traffic tickets a year. In the course of that many contacts he's towing 4 or 5 cars a day yet he never arrests anyone with warrants and never finds drugs or other contraband. It's obvious that he writes the ticket and cuts them loose so he can write more tickets and never investigates what are obvious indications of criminal activity. A chimpanzee could be trained to do what he does - he's not a cop but you know he keeps a tally of his tickets and thinks he's the hardest working officer on his department. If I were a criminal I'd love to see that he was the officer stopping me. What's a traffic ticket when you're hauling a load of dope. <br /><br />If all drivers were actually competent we could trash the traffic statutes without any problem. The fact is that there are far too many dunderheads sharing the roads with the rest of us. Like everything else, we have to work to the lowest common denominator.<br /><br />As for this guy challenging the process - all I can say is that he's not the first to make this argument. If it could be done it would have been by now. The only way this results in change is if the court finds it useful in other matters. <br /><br />I think there's a misconception about the potential to beat a ticket if a jury hears the case. Speeding traffic is THE most common complaint police hear about everywhere. This shouldn't be the case, but it is for a number of reason. With that said, everyone expects the police to write tickets to speeders - unless they're the speeder. <br /><br />We get neighborhood petitions from time to time demanding traffic enforcement. We saturate the area and cite every speeding driver there for a few days. In the end it's rare that we haven't cited most of the complainers and I find it instructive that only a small percentage of the speeders don't live in the area. The petitions usually include some allegation that the speeders are visitors to the area - surely if they lived there they wouldn't drive that way right? <br /><br />Those who don't work in the legal system have no idea how it works. Some of these judges are flat out nuts. Some are horribly ignorant of the law and constitutional issues. Some have an obvious bias. Most are great, but you never know what you'll get until you get to court and see who's on the bench. My point is that jurors are likely to be tougher than judges. You should hear the silly arguments that get into traffic court. Judges come to expect them, but jurors would be insulted that they are being asked to believe them. <br /><br />The general rule of thumb is that defendants opt for a jury trial when they believe they can make an emotion-based defense. They opt for a judge trial when the basis of their defense is of a technical nature.
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Traffic Tix – Challenging The Legal System

Originally posted by deputydawg:<br /> Almost every driver has never considered one point though. On a 50 mile trip the difference between 60 and 75 is only a few minutes.
Yeah, but every minute seems like an eternity if you’ve thrown down 5 or 6 beers and need to get home to pee.<br /> :D
 
Top