Total boat electrical refit - looking for advice

[ShoestringMariner]

Hey everyone, I'm looking to pick up components to do full refit on my 16' runabout. (early fish and ski with an outboard motor)
The boat currently has next to nothing in it. (bilge, cig lighter, nav/anchor lights)

I'm scrapping all the original wiring/knobs and adding or re-adding the following;

• Sonar
• GPS
• Bilge 1
• Bilge 2 (back up)
• Nav lights (Led)
• Anchor light (led)
• cabin/feature lighting (led)
• Lit compartments
• Marine radio
• Future stereo
• Dual USB port
• 12v Accessory port
• 12v starter motor volt monitor (digital) and one for the trolling batteries
• 12v main kill switch
• 12v battery switch 1,2, off for trolling batteries
• Live-well aerator

I'm planning on using a 12 circuit fuse block and a negative bus bar.
The trolling system will be 100% isolated from the main system with an onboard charger.

My questions (so far) are;

1. Where's the best place to put the main kill switch? I'd like to kill the system for off use (no parasitic draw or oops, I left the ignition on). I'm thinking at the back above the starting battery
2. Should I run 2 batteries for the main system? (starting & accessories, or one deep cycle/starting) I really don`t want 4 batteries in this small boat. I`m running a Humminbird Helix7 down/side image fish finder and will be adding a tablet for Nav. (or dedicated nav)
3. I prefer the Sea Dog 5 or 6 toggle panel with mini LED's. Or are the toggle/rocker switches with circuit breakers better than using a fuse block? I don`t see blowing many fuses.
4. What size cables should I run to power the fuse block, AWG 8?
5. How parasitic are led illuminated switches? (Ie; illuminated horn buttons etc. )

Any thoughts and tips would be appreciated, especially regarding tips on eliminating parasitic draw. I was almost stranded last year and fortunately able to make it back in on a kicker motor

 

[Scott Danforth]

1 - battery switch back by the batteries. get a 1-2-both-off
2 - 1 motor battery, 1 or two house-load battery (connected by the battery switch)
3 - your choice. I purchased carling circuit breakers and carling rocker switches and made my own panel.
4 - your choice. i have 4-gauge cables running from the house battery to the helm. I have 8 gauge running from the motor start battery to the helm. i use the key switch to fire solid state relays for the house loads and a pair of VF4 relays for the motor related items.
5. look at the manufacturers tech sheet on the LED current draw. its not much.

 

[GA_Boater]

Plan on a sonar and GPS combo unit. Functional and works better in a 16' boat where space is at a premium. Does your Helix have GPS?

Where to you boat? A VHF radio that is not monitored is useless and eats up more space. On most inland lakes and rivers, a cell phone works to call for help. Also, a phone app take care of back-up navigation. Why do you want a tablet when a sonar/GPS and phone is all you need?

Rethink all the lighting. What is feature lighting? You don't have a cabin to light up and plan lighting to see inside lockers. Gunnel lighting will probably suffice. You aren't lighting the Queen Mary.

 

[ShoestringMariner]

1 - battery switch back by the batteries. get a 1-2-both-off
2 - 1 motor battery, 1 or two house-load battery (connected by the battery switch)
3 - your choice. I purchased carling circuit breakers and carling rocker switches and made my own panel.
4 - your choice. i have 4-gauge cables running from the house battery to the helm. I have 8 gauge running from the motor start battery to the helm. i use the key switch to fire solid state relays for the house loads and a pair of VF4 relays for the motor related items.
5. look at the manufacturers tech sheet on the LED current draw. its not much.

Thanks. I’m planning on putting the 2 troller batts up front under the bow seats, up tight to the helms (one per side). So probably lighter gauge?

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Plan on a sonar and GPS combo unit. Functional and works better in a 16' boat where space is at a premium. Does your Helix have GPS?

Where to you boat? A VHF radio that is not monitored is useless and eats up more space. On most inland lakes and rivers, a cell phone works to call for help. Also, a phone app take care of back-up navigation. Why do you want a tablet when a sonar/GPS and phone is all you need?

Rethink all the lighting. What is feature lighting? You don't have a cabin to light up and plan lighting to see inside lockers. Gunnel lighting will probably suffice. You aren't lighting the Queen Mary.

Thanks, I know nothing of VHF radios so good to know. I fish Lake Huron/Georgian Bay, Lake Ont, French River/Lake Nippising and hoping for Lake St Clair. The French can be quite remote with poor cell reception.

The Helix has both but the Topo maps are not as detailed as iphone/tablet. And the 7” screen is too small to be split 2-3 ways. If I don’t run a tablet, I will add another 7 or 8” unit with better topo. Whatever will fit the leftover dash space. I used my phone last year but I’d like a bigger display for these old eyes.

feature lighting; yes gunnel lights and 1 for the bow footwell. Maybe under helm to light the floor. For night fishing so I can see my stuff and deal with hooked fish. Or just sitting out on the water relaxing on nice nights. I plan on a few long weekend boat camping trips on the French system

 

[dingbat]

A VHF radio that is not monitored is useless and eats up more space. On most inland lakes and rivers, a cell phone works to call for help.

This unfortunately is a fallacy that’s cost lives.

Time is of the essence in an emergency. Your best chance of immediate rescue is your fellow boater....not some 911 operator sitting somewhere in a call center who has no idea where you are or the means to notify fellow boaters in a position to offer immediate assistance.

I know of three people who thought the same way and lost their lives because of it. The irony is that the local fire and rescue chief was out fishing within eye sight of the boat in distress. The Chief ultimately turned out to be first on the scene via multiple 911 relays and phone calls, but by that time the rescue turned into a SAR.

U.S. Coast Guard offers VHF and MF/HF radiotelephone service to mariners as part of the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System. This service, called digital selective calling (DSC), allows mariners to instantly send an automatically formatted distress alert to the Coast Guard or other rescue authority anywhere in the world. Digital selective calling also allows mariners to initiate or receive distress, urgency, safety and routine radiotelephone calls to or from any similarly equipped vessel or shore station, without requiring either party to be near a radio loudspeaker. DSC acts like the dial and bell of a telephone, allowing you to "direct dial" and "ring" other radios, or allow others to "ring" you, without having to listen to a speaker.

IMHO....USCG should mandate DSC as they do with life jackets. Make every boater a plausible first responder

 

[ShoestringMariner]

This unfortunately is a fallacy that’s cost lives.

Time is of the essence in an emergency. Your best chance of immediate rescue is your fellow boater....not some 911 operator sitting somewhere in a call center who has no idea where you are or the means to notify fellow boaters in a position to offer immediate assistance.

I know of three people who thought the same way and lost their lives because of it. The irony is that the local fire and rescue chief was out fishing within eye sight of the boat in distress. The Chief ultimately turned out to be first on the scene via multiple 911 relays and phone calls, but by that time the rescue turned into a SAR.

U.S. Coast Guard offers VHF and MF/HF radiotelephone service to mariners as part of the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System. This service, called digital selective calling (DSC), allows mariners to instantly send an automatically formatted distress alert to the Coast Guard or other rescue authority anywhere in the world. Digital selective calling also allows mariners to initiate or receive distress, urgency, safety and routine radiotelephone calls to or from any similarly equipped vessel or shore station, without requiring either party to be near a radio loudspeaker. DSC acts like the dial and bell of a telephone, allowing you to "direct dial" and "ring" other radios, or allow others to "ring" you, without having to listen to a speaker.

IMHO....USCG should mandate DSC as they do with life jackets. Make every boater a plausible first responder

Thanks, but can a 911 operator not locate your phone? Or is "this just on tv" or within urban areas?

I'll definitely be looking into VHF radios and their effectiveness in Canada. I would think that the great lakes coast guard on both sides should be reachable with VHF due to the shipping traffic?

Edit; Here's a few links for those interested in the great lakes region. The first one confirms your thoughts and answers my 911 triangulation question.

Marine VHF Radio

A marine VHF radio is the single most essential piece of safety equipment on board a sailboat.

www.great-lakes-sailing.com

Another that could be interesting;

Course Details - CPS

www.cps-ecp.ca

I want to get into Salmon/Lake Trout fishing in Lake Ontario's Blue zone. I don't want to find out my cell does not work if I ever need a rescue.

 

[dingbat]

Thanks, but can a 911 operator not locate your phone? Or is "this just on tv" or within urban areas?

Even if the 911 operator knows the exact location, what are they going to do about it?
Send a squad car out to assist?
Call the local USCG and tell them someone is in distress but we don't know exactly where?
How long is all this going to take?

With DSC, you push the distress button and every boat within range (5+ miles radius) is immediately notified of the situation and given your position. If you have an AIS enabled chart plotter, the location of the boat in distress is displayed on the chart plotter.

We lost two guys a couple of years ago because they didn't have VHF, let along DSC VHF onboard.

Three guys where out fishing when they started taking on water and called 911. Panicked, they couldn't give the operator anything other than a general location. Local police dispatch didn't know what to do. Passed the call to the local fire and rescue company with water rescue capabilities, albeit 20 miles away from the scene.

Fortunately for one of the guys, dispatch at the Fire and rescue knew someone fishing in the general area and gave him a call to keep a look out.
Turns out the guy fishing was only a mile or so from the scene but arrived too late to save two of the guys who died of exposure.

You do not need a license to operate ship to ship VHF in the US

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Even if the 911 operator knows the exact location, what are they going to do about it?
Send a squad car out to assist?
Call the local USCG and tell them someone is in distress but we don't know exactly where?
How long is all this going to take?

With DSC, you push the distress button and every boat within range (5+ miles radius) is immediately notified of the situation and given your position. If you have an AIS enabled chart plotter, the location of the boat in distress is displayed on the chart plotter.

We lost two guys a couple of years ago because they didn't have VHF, let along DSC VHF onboard.

Three guys where out fishing when they started taking on water and called 911. Panicked, they couldn't give the operator anything other than a general location. Local police dispatch didn't know what to do. Passed the call to the local fire and rescue company with water rescue capabilities, albeit 20 miles away from the scene.

Fortunately for one of the guys, dispatch at the Fire and rescue knew someone fishing in the general area and gave him a call to keep a look out.
Turns out the guy fishing was only a mile or so from the scene but arrived too late to save two of the guys who died of exposure.

You do not need a license to operate ship to ship VHF in the US

If those were friends or acquaintances, my condolences.
There's been a few lost around these parts in the past year or two also. I don't plan on being a future SAR

 

[ShoestringMariner]

EDIT to original post; I will be going with a portable/handheld VHF as I change boats frequently

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Guys, do you think I’d be ok running only 8ga to the helm?
My starting circuit is through the motor controls only (outboard)
My trolling batts are on a separate circuit.

The helm is only going to run the following;
LED Nav lights, LED courtesy lights, 4 LED compartment lights? horn, TWO 1100 Gph bilge pumps, sonar & gps (2 fish finders under 10” or one fish finder, and one tablet), 12v power outlet and a dual USB charge port.
VHF radio is deleted. (Going handheld).
I doubt I’ll add a stereo system ever.

Min Kota Terrova troller system is calling for 8ga, I’d like to avoid ordering another size roll and 6ga (my original thoughts for both helm and trollerseems overkill

thanks

 

[jhebert]

...I know nothing of VHF radios so good to know. I fish Lake Huron/Georgian Bay, Lake Ont, French River/Lake Nippising and hoping for Lake St Clair. The French can be quite remote with poor cell reception.
...

Hello--are you a Canadian citizen boating in Canada? If so, there is good advice about proper licensing of a boat radio and proper operator's license available at

Marine Radio in Canada | Pat's Boating in Canada

boating.ncf.ca

If you are an U.S.A citizen and will be boating in Canada, or if you are a Canadian citizen and will be boating in the U.S.A, then the boat will require a ship station license and you will require a marine operator's license issued by your home country.

If you need advice about installation of a VHF Marine Band radio aboard a small boat, see

VHF Marine Band Radio Installation on a Small Boat

continuousWave: Whaler: Reference: VHF Marine Band Radio Installation

Suggestions and recommendations for installation of a VHF Marine Band radio on a small boat.

continuouswave.com

The licensing advice is for U.S.A. citizens, but the installation advice applies to any VHF Marine Band radio.

If you plan to be in remote area--and there are many of those in northern Georgian Bay--I recommend installing a 25-watt fixed-mount VHF Marine Band radio with DSC CLASS-D capabilities, interfaced with an external GNSS receiver or with an integral GNSS receiver, and connected to a good permanently mounted antenna with the antennas base installed as high as possible.

I have been boating for many years as a U.S.A citizen in the Canadian waters of Lake Huron and in Georgian Bay. There is very good VHF Marine Band coverage up there from the Canadian Coast Guard. There are many areas without cellular telephone signals.

 

[jhebert]

...be ok running only 8ga to the helm?

Connecting power to a secondary power distribution panel from a primary power distribution bus using conductor of 8-AWG will be adequate for most small boat installations where the distance between the two power distribution points is not more than about 10-feet.

 

[roscoe]

The Helix has both but the Topo maps are not as detailed as iphone/tablet.

Really surprised at this.
What map chip are you using in the Helix?

The map chip should have the same maps that can be found online.

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Really surprised at this.
What map chip are you using in the Helix?

The map chip should have the same maps that can be found online.

Thanks for all your help. I’ve been told the settings on my helix might not be right. I’ll check this spring. I’m using the navionics card that came with it

 

[ShoestringMariner]

So I’m just getting to my wiring project now.

Because I have 2 group 27’s up front and one starting battery at the back, I’m debating wiring these up so that they can all be used separately or all together if in the event of everything being depleted by using a series of 1+2 switches

At the very least, the house and starter batt together through a mini add-a-battery kit by Blue Sea.

Any thoughts on this and what to be concerned with?

 

[Scott Danforth]

So I’m just getting to my wiring project now.

Because I have 2 group 27’s up front and one starting battery at the back, I’m debating wiring these up so that they can all be used separately or all together if in the event of everything being depleted by using a series of 1+2 switches

At the very least, the house and starter batt together through a mini add-a-battery kit by Blue Sea.

Any thoughts on this and what to be concerned with?

you are going to need some long and heavy cables from each battery to a battery switch.

depending on your motor and the length of the boat, to combine the two in the front with the one in the back for a load at the back (starting the motor), you will need to have some really beafy cables. lets assume your boat is 19 feet long. your battery switch is back by the motor and the starting battery.

going to assume an outboard motor in the below 150 range

for the starting battery to the switch, you are looking at 2 gauge wires or 0 gauge at a minimum if you are about 6 feet long. however for that 24 feet of length snaking thru your gunwales or under the floor to the two front mounted batteries. that will be 0000 gauge or larger. will have to run the voltage drop calculation for the 48 feet.

 

[elsaylor]

you need a battery isolator

 

[ShoestringMariner]

you are going to need some long and heavy cables from each battery to a battery switch.

depending on your motor and the length of the boat, to combine the two in the front with the one in the back for a load at the back (starting the motor), you will need to have some really beafy cables. lets assume your boat is 19 feet long. your battery switch is back by the motor and the starting battery.

going to assume an outboard motor in the below 150 range

for the starting battery to the switch, you are looking at 2 gauge wires or 0 gauge at a minimum if you are about 6 feet long. however for that 24 feet of length snaking thru your gunwales or under the floor to the two front mounted batteries. that will be 0000 gauge or larger. will have to run the voltage drop calculation for the 48 feet.

Thanks, if I’m not mistaken, those are some hefty cables. I’m running a 50/60/70 hp series OMC triple. Having the third batt connected will be out of the question then as it is approx 18-20 cable feet from each other.

Batt 1 and 2 are approx 10’ apart. Those are the two I was considering pairing with the mini add a battery switch kit.
What size cable would you recommend at that length?

 

[elsaylor]

you never mentioned how you will charge these batteries. on a old mopar you could run a 10ga wire fused on BOTH ends 50amp fuse and go alt <> batt+.
dunno how that applies to you.
myself im gonna use a solar controller and panel to recharge.
there are wire size charts online. like your trollingmotor called for 8ga, because its going to use 30amps or whatever the spec is.
you can calculate all these things for the loads you will run - radio, troller, lights, etc.