Tohatsu hot starting problem

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

I haven't attacked you. In fact you are the only one who has made baseless accusations. Do you just not get it? Your statements are not based on anything concrete at all. Go back and read what you have posted...Can you honestly say that any of your negative statements are based on anything other than what you WANT to believe. Unless I am a liar, I explained away every assertion that you made. Step out of your shoes and step in to mine...One of us is blind to our own faults.

My friend, I don't want to win an argument with you. What I have tried to do is to explain to you why you are wrong. It wasn't personal when this started and it isn't personal now. You simply do not know what you are talking about. That is not a crime, it does not mean you are an idiot and it does not mean that you are a bad person. It just means that you lack any factual basis for you to have formed YOUR opinions. Frankly, there just aren't many people out there who are my equal in this field...It's a small playground that I am in. It does not make me a bully to tell people they are wrong when they are wrong and...You just happen to be wrong. And for what it's worth, sometimes I am wrong too.

 

[myhuntfish]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

I haven't attacked you. In fact you are the only one who has made baseless accusations. Do you just not get it? Your statements are not based on anything concrete at all. Go back and read what you have posted...Can you honestly say that any of your negative statements are based on anything other than what you WANT to believe. Unless I am a liar, I explained away every assertion that you made. Step out of your shoes and step in to mine...One of us is blind to our own faults.

My friend, I don't want to win an argument with you. What I have tried to do is to explain to you why you are wrong. It wasn't personal when this started and it isn't personal now. You simply do not know what you are talking about. That is not a crime, it does not mean you are an idiot and it does not mean that you are a bad person. It just means that you lack any factual basis for you to have formed YOUR opinions. Frankly, there just aren't many people out there who are my equal in this field...It's a small playground that I am in. It does not make me a bully to tell people they are wrong when they are wrong and...You just happen to be wrong. And for what it's worth, sometimes I am wrong too.

You know what I do respect your opinion and I have no doubt you are an expert in your field. That is my opinion of you. Though I have no factual basis for it. But you will have no problem with that opinion because you agree with it. I admire the fact that you donate your time to help others, such as me. My opinion is based on my own first hand experiences which I have explained in my previous posts.
The only assumptions I have made that seem to bother you is :
1. "Tohatsu is aware of this problem". They are. Period. Do you deny that?
2. "This problem is not so uncommon". That is subjective to each person's opinion on what is "uncommon". 1 in 200 or otherwise. That is your number. Is that number correct, I don't know. Maybe I was wrong, Maybe not. Who cares it was MY opinion. Your opinion is I'm wrong. Again who cares. Why do you want to argue about it.
3. I said something about my Dealer not know having a clue about whats wrong- they didn't. The second time I brought it in and they still had no solution whatsoever, the owner tells me they are still learning these motors and I should just continue running the motor and see if it happens again. It did. So I started looking for an answer because they were not. I call them and suggest vapor lock after listening to you and others on here. Less than an hour later they send me a long explanation from Tohatsu why that is whats wrong with the motor, why its doing it and what they will do to fix it. Amazing they had no clue before, but i should not form any sort of opinion about that right? It would be baseless huh?
4. You said "If you can hear bacon frying you have vapor lock". I have heard the sizzling noise you spoke about from the beginning of owning the motor. Not every time but I have heard it. Then the original poster confirmed the same problem with his motor. So I took you at your word that this is what it is and you say that I "suspect vapor lock, but I know nothing of the kind". Whatever.

Thanks so much. Its been fun.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

We all have opinions about a lot of things. My point to you was/is/will be that you have no basis to form that opinion based on what you actually know. If you expressed an opinion about the paint color(which is subjective) I wouldn't feel that it was baseless. Not because I agree with it, but because it is not based on false assumptions. If you expressed an opinion that Tohatsu should have a longer warranty or a shorter warranty I wouldn't feel that you were off base. It's a subjective opinion based on your perceived values. My only problem with your opinions are where they conflict with the known facts...I know them, you do not and that means I cannot take those opinions as anything other than wrong.

1) No...But, it is not a PROBLEM.
2) From a statistical standpoint it is so rare as to not be an issue in any brand.
3) Yes and no. As I stated previously, techs are not familiar with vapor lock in outboards because it has always been so rare.
4) This is the first time you have mentioned that you heard the bacon...I can't read your mind. But, the fact remains, you still do not know that you have vapor lock(I assume you do at this point, but until it has been determined by your dealer you and I, are still just guessing)

Your welcome and no, it has been not. I think this whole thing took an unnecessary turn because you felt/feel that there has been a conspiracy of silence about the problem you have with your engine. I know that is not the case because this is what I do everyday. All I am asking you to do is to consider that vapor lock is so rare as to not be looked at by mechanics, until after they have looked for the obvious first. And again, it is not an engine problem, it is a fuel/temperature problem(fuel pressure before the fuel pump contributes to it as well).

 

[myhuntfish]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

We all have opinions about a lot of things. My point to you was/is/will be that you have no basis to form that opinion based on what you actually know. If you expressed an opinion about the paint color(which is subjective) I wouldn't feel that it was baseless. Not because I agree with it, but because it is not based on false assumptions. If you expressed an opinion that Tohatsu should have a longer warranty or a shorter warranty I wouldn't feel that you were off base. It's a subjective opinion based on your perceived values. My only problem with your opinions are where they conflict with the known facts...I know them, you do not and that means I cannot take those opinions as anything other than wrong.

1) No...But, it is not a PROBLEM.
2) From a statistical standpoint it is so rare as to not be an issue in any brand.
3) Yes and no. As I stated previously, techs are not familiar with vapor lock in outboards because it has always been so rare.
4) This is the first time you have mentioned that you heard the bacon...I can't read your mind. But, the fact remains, you still do not know that you have vapor lock(I assume you do at this point, but until it has been determined by your dealer you and I, are still just guessing)

Your welcome and no, it has been not. I think this whole thing took an unnecessary turn because you felt/feel that there has been a conspiracy of silence about the problem you have with your engine. I know that is not the case because this is what I do everyday. All I am asking you to do is to consider that vapor lock is so rare as to not be looked at by mechanics, until after they have looked for the obvious first. And again, it is not an engine problem, it is a fuel/temperature problem(fuel pressure before the fuel pump contributes to it as well).

Point(s) taken. Do you think I should go ahead with this mod or wait for Tohatsu to come up with a better solution? I really don't like the idea of an external fuel pump.

 

[jcb493]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Myhuntfish, I am not sure you should go ahead with the mod. According to Tohatsu, if you let the motor cool at idle before shutting down that should stop the problem. If that doesn't work, I would definitely get the fix. I also heard that they are working on a solution to this that doesn't involve the pump, but they are not quite there yet. I should get mine back tomorrow and I will test it out this weekend. I'll post back to let you know how the new pump works. Like you, I am not happy about having the external pump, but I really don't have a lot of choice if I want a 100% reliable motor. I think Tohatsu has handled the situation as best they can, even though our experiences with our respective dealerships have been drastically different. The guy I took my motor had no idea what was wrong. He just happened to talk to the right person at Tohatsu who happened to be aware of the situation. They know the problem is happening and have acknowledged that it is a rare problem. I just don't know how we got so lucky!

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Here's how it works:

You can idle for a few minutes, after a run, before you turn the engine off.

You can dump your existing fuel into your car and buy some fresh gas from another source.

You can make sure that your fuel line has no unnecessary angles in it.

You can look at where your fuel tank is in your boat(if it is portable) and move it to an area where it will not get as much heat.

You can look at your fuel line and re-route it so that you reduce any exposure to the sun or heat.

You can have Tohatsu add the exterior, booster fuel pump.

You can wait for the secret(obviously not any more) internal fuel pump modification to be designed, tested and released.(If it is available before next year I would be surprised)

There are three things at play here:

fuel blend

temperature

fuel pressure(constriction before the fuel pump)

Anyone or combination thereof, can lead to vapor lock.


My best advice to anyone is to change fuel, reduce the fuel storage temperature and look for a fuel flow constriction. (Constriction can be something as inane as a 90 degree fuel fitting that is just acting to restrict the flow enough to cause a vacuum problem). If all of that fails to solve a true vapor lock problem then I would add the mod.

 

[myhuntfish]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Myhuntfish, I am not sure you should go ahead with the mod. According to Tohatsu, if you let the motor cool at idle before shutting down that should stop the problem. If that doesn't work, I would definitely get the fix. I also heard that they are working on a solution to this that doesn't involve the pump, but they are not quite there yet. I should get mine back tomorrow and I will test it out this weekend. I'll post back to let you know how the new pump works. Like you, I am not happy about having the external pump, but I really don't have a lot of choice if I want a 100% reliable motor. I think Tohatsu has handled the situation as best they can, even though our experiences with our respective dealerships have been drastically different. The guy I took my motor had no idea what was wrong. He just happened to talk to the right person at Tohatsu who happened to be aware of the situation. They know the problem is happening and have acknowledged that it is a rare problem. I just don't know how we got so lucky!

Thanks. I have told the dealer I will wait a couple more weeks before I try the mod. I will wait to hear back from you on your motor. I know what you mean about wanting it to be reliable. I don't feel comfortable taking mine out very far. thanks

 

[myhuntfish]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Here's how it works:

You can idle for a few minutes, after a run, before you turn the engine off.

You can dump your existing fuel into your car and buy some fresh gas from another source.

You can make sure that your fuel line has no unnecessary angles in it.

You can look at where your fuel tank is in your boat(if it is portable) and move it to an area where it will not get as much heat.

You can look at your fuel line and re-route it so that you reduce any exposure to the sun or heat.

You can have Tohatsu add the exterior, booster fuel pump.

You can wait for the secret(obviously not any more) internal fuel pump modification to be designed, tested and released.(If it is available before next year I would be surprised)

There are three things at play here:

fuel blend

temperature

fuel pressure(constriction before the fuel pump)

Anyone or combination thereof, can lead to vapor lock.


My best advice to anyone is to change fuel, reduce the fuel storage temperature and look for a fuel flow constriction. (Constriction can be something as inane as a 90 degree fuel fitting that is just acting to restrict the flow enough to cause a vacuum problem). If all of that fails to solve a true vapor lock problem then I would add the mod.

What grade of fuel do you recommend?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

It doesn't really matter. In terms of vapor lock it is a fuel blend issue, not an octane issue. Without going into the science of petroleum distillates(something I am not qualified to do), the best way to put it is that Yankee invader fuel, that is produced for winter use, boils at a lower temperature than peaceful southern summer fuel. So it is really more about getting a warm weather blend of fuel, keeping your fuel in your boat at the lowest possible temperature that you can and having the least obstructed fuel path possible. Warm fuel going into the engine can cause just as much of a problem as the blend itsel. The third leg of woe is fuel turbulence or constriction that basically gives a medium for the other two to become a problem. Any one of those, by themselves, can cause vapor lock...Any combination of those just increases the possibility.

Since this has been a topic of discussion here I have done a little research. I actually watched a ten year old training video from Mercury to refresh myself on this crap and have reached a conclusion: It's not a problem unless you experience yourself According to Mercury and I have no reason to disbelieve them, fuel blend is probably the number one cause by itself. Temperature, both of the fuel and ambient air, is the number 2 enemy. The pressure/constriction/vacuum/turbulence leg is obviously the number three issue. Or sort of anyway. While they blamed the blend and temperature as the primary problem(s) the video ended up really shifting a lot of the blame to number three as patient zero. As I stated before, I just haven't seen enough of it, to disagree with the engineers who have studied it. The Supreme Diety of Service at Tohatsu looks at like this: It's not a PROBLEM because the number of people who have had it is statisctiacally so small. It is a problem to him because anyone who owns a Tohatsu should always feel warm and fuzzy about it. Hence, the engineering staff in Japan are looking to come up with a way to reduce vapor lock occurance down even further.

 

[myhuntfish]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Took the boat out again today. My fuel line was already short and strait so no mods there. No where to really block the fuel tank from the sun as I have a small boat. Switched fuel brand, slowed down to less than half throttle for 1/4 mile before reaching the boat ramp, let the motor idle a couple minutes before shutting down, even waited about 10 minutes before attempting to crank her back up to load up at the ramp. Same story- though not quite as bad. Tried to crank her and would not start first two times. Third time fired up but acted like starving for fuel for about five seconds until it finally idled up to normal speed. I guess I will just go ahead with the mod and hopefully it will solve it.:facepalm:

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Try a space blanket over the fuel tank. It will reflect a lot of the heat away from your tank and may help, in a stop gap kind of way.

 

[jcb493]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

I took the boat out Friday with the new fuel pump and it ran great. The mod is really not a big deal. The pump is mounted next to my fuel water separator and you can't really even see it since it is tucked up under the back corner of the boat. It starts running when you turn the on ignition and it makes just a slight humming noise that you can barely hear. The only way you can even tell it is in the boat is the extra wire running to the motor. My only concerns are the wire getting in the way while I am hunting or fishing in the boat, and the pump and/or the electrical connectors rusting when I am in salt water. I've got to figure out some way to secure the wire a little better. The new pump is not the greatest solution and just adds one more thing in the boat that can screw up. On the plus side, it didn't cost me a dime, I don't really have to worry about fuel blends, and I don't have to worry about the motor failing to start because of a vapor lock.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

MyHuntFish,

If you are willing I would like to see you try one last thing as a test. Get a cardboard box and put your fuel tank in it. Then put a couple of reusable ice-packs on the fuel tank and try the boat again. If that stops the problem then we know it is an incoming fuel temperature issue.

 

[myhuntfish]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Dropped the boat at the dealer for the fuel pump mod. Will see what happens.....

 

[myhuntfish]

Re: Tohatsu hot starting problem

Update: Picked up the boat. The dealer had it for two weeks! Took a while for the computer to come back from Tohatsu. When it did the tech was on vacation, He returned and finished the job. The boat was ready Friday but the owner was not available for a test run because he was at a boat show, so I opted to leave it until he could run the boat before I picked it up. They ran it and said all is fine, I will run it this weekend and give a final update. Hopefully my problems are solved.........