Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

[Bill_Alexander]

I have a 2004 4.3L V6 Carburated with Alpha outdrive. My up tilt works fine but it is weak going down. Can't put engine down on boat lift without standing on outdrive. Can put it down under power when in water. When rotating up there is a nice clean tone from the trim hydraulic pump. When rotating down it sounds kind of scratchy. How do I tell if a I have a problem with the pump or one/both of the actuators. SELOC manual doesn't have much of a procedure but seems to suggest leaving actuator issues to professional mechanics. Hopefully someone on the forum knows more about trim hydraulic issues than myself. Thanks and Happy New Year!

 

[Don S]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Is the trim pump reservoir full? Is the oil milky? You really need to do some pressure tests to find the problem.
Here is a link you can download the oem manual from.
http://www.4shared.com/document/dPQUcyn_/Service_Manual_14.html

 

[Bondo]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

I have a 2004 4.3L V6 Carburated with Alpha outdrive. My up tilt works fine but it is weak going down. Can't put engine down on boat lift without standing on outdrive. Can put it down under power when in water. When rotating up there is a nice clean tone from the trim hydraulic pump. When rotating down it sounds kind of scratchy. How do I tell if a I have a problem with the pump or one/both of the actuators. SELOC manual doesn't have much of a procedure but seems to suggest leaving actuator issues to professional mechanics. Hopefully someone on the forum knows more about trim hydraulic issues than myself. Thanks and Happy New Year!

Ayuh,... The Down circuit is of a lower pressure...

How long ago was the drive serviced, 'n the pivots Greased,..??
Is this a Saltwater, or freshwater boat,..??
Is there corrosion on the ends of the ram tubes,..??

 

[cdiamond]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

if the fluid level was low - the drive wouldn't trim all the way up
the cylinders fill going up -

i'm willing to wager
the cylinders are bound up at the end cap/seal area

when this happens
the greater amount of pressure developed by the pump when going up can overcome the binding

dollars to doughnut op operates in saltwater

very common here in sw fl.
i repair dozens every year

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

My boat (outdrive) does that too. Probably a combination of things stiffening up and maybe some air in the lines. Who knows, I just put it in forward and it comes down.

 

[achris]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

The end cap on one of the trim rams is corroding and 'grabbing' the piston rod. The only long term cure is to replace the end cap. As Bond-o said, the DOWN pressure is considerably lower, coupled with the surface area of the piston being less (due to the rod), the force when going DOWN is about 1/10th of that going UP. Replacement cap is part # -806191T....

P.S.... I bet you operate in salt water....

 

[cdiamond]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Who knows, I just put it in forward and it comes down.

gotta love it

fits right in with

'i just smack the starter with a hammer and it starts right up'
'i just put a screw driver across the solenoid and she cranks just fine'
'i just keep filling the outdrive reservoir up and it lasts all day'
'i just work the shifter back and forth a few times and it shifts just fine'

the wise and seasoned boater will correct systems not working properly

FYI - one of these times that drive wont come down
and you can bet it's not going to happen at your dock

good luck and safe boating

 

[Bill_Alexander]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Thanks for everyone's help. Answers to some of the questions

1. The resevoir is full, doesn't look milky.
2. Has no problems going up
3. I do operate in salt water. Hose it down every time but boat lift is hanging above the canal. I live in Merritt Island FL.
One responder (apparently a professional mechanic) mentioned fixing this issue dozens of times a year in SW FL.
4. I don't have the gauges to actually measure hydraulic pressure. Sounds interesting but I am not sure it is worth it to buy them for fixing my own boat only.
5. The end caps are corroded.
6. Outdrive has never been off the boat since I bought it in 2004(270 operating hours) . I assume the outdrive needs to come off to lubricate the gymbal? Sounds like I should get it pulled and lubricated?
7. Have had two corrosion related failures
a. distributor pickup corroded so bad that parts were falling off. Noticed that replacement pickup is potted vs. open air design of original.
b. trim solenoid / pump mounting bracket corroded away. 80% of bracket was disentegrated and removed with shop vac.

I am a novice backyard mechanic (carburetor rebuild, ignition parts, trim solenoid wiring and brackets, oil changes, fuel filter, batteries). Sounds like at this point I need to get the trim fixed, re-lube the gymbal, and also possibly get a new water pump impeller. I could do the impeller myself but I don't have an engine hoist and I don't have hydraulic gauges. Sounds like the trim and gymbal are best for the professional mechanics. The impeller is a toss up. My temperature is good at 170. When do I need to replace the impeller?

Enclosing a few pictures. Thanks again for everyone's inputs.

 

[achris]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Thanks for everyone's help. Answers to some of the questions

1. The resevoir is full, doesn't look milky.
2. Has no problems going up
3. I do operate in salt water. Hose it down every time but boat lift is hanging above the canal. I live in Merritt Island FL.
One responder (apparently a professional mechanic) mentioned fixing this issue dozens of times a year in SW FL.

That was cdiamond. But I have also done the job MANY times, for the same reason, and with exactly the same symptom as you have...

4. I don't have the gauges to actually measure hydraulic pressure. Sounds interesting but I am not sure it is worth it to buy them for fixing my own boat only.

You don't need to buy any gauges. Just trim the leg all the way UP, remove the anode form the trim ram end cap, then using a home made tool (stout iron flat bar with a slot cut and 2 hardened bolt set into it) to loosen and remove the end cap. Then put the rod (complete with the endcap) out of the ram tube. Clamp the end of the rod in a vice and unscrew the piston from the end of the rod. Slide the old cap off (throw it in the bin) and push the new one on. Bit of 262 on the bolt and put the piston back on the rod. Put that assembly back in the ram tube, screw up the end cap and refit the rod to the leg... Job done...

5. The end caps are corroded.
6. Outdrive has never been off the boat since I bought it in 2004(270 operating hours) . I assume the outdrive needs to come off to lubricate the gymbal? Sounds like I should get it pulled and lubricated?

Annual service should include removing the leg to check unis, bellows and gimbal bearing. Pulling the leg off is a 6 minute job (including climbing into the boat to put it in forward gear)....

7. Have had two corrosion related failures
a. distributor pickup corroded so bad that parts were falling off. Noticed that replacement pickup is potted vs. open air design of original.
b. trim solenoid / pump mounting bracket corroded away. 80% of bracket was disentegrated and removed with shop vac.

I am a novice backyard mechanic (carburetor rebuild, ignition parts, trim solenoid wiring and brackets, oil changes, fuel filter, batteries). Sounds like at this point I need to get the trim fixed, re-lube the gymbal, and also possibly get a new water pump impeller. I could do the impeller myself but I don't have an engine hoist and I don't have hydraulic gauges. Sounds like the trim and gymbal are best for the professional mechanics. The impeller is a toss up. My temperature is good at 170. When do I need to replace the impeller?

Pulling the leg off to check all those things is easier than splitting the leg to service the water pump impeller.... Do you have the merc service manuals?

Chris......

 

[achris]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Who knows, I just put it in forward and it comes down.

gotta love it

fits right in with

'i just smack the starter with a hammer and it starts right up'
'i just put a screw driver across the solenoid and she cranks just fine'
'i just keep filling the outdrive reservoir up and it lasts all day'
'i just work the shifter back and forth a few times and it shifts just fine'

the wise and seasoned boater will correct systems not working properly

FYI - one of these times that drive wont come down
and you can bet it's not going to happen at your dock

good luck and safe boating

Here here...

 

[artificialreef]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Holy Schmoly, impeller has not been replaced since 2004. That thing is as cracked and crevised as my weathered face. Dont impeller freaks on here do it every season. And worst case scenario every 2 seasons. And as far as the end cap AChris, i know this one is newer than mine, does it not have a rebuild kit for it (to the tune of 15 bucks or so here on iboats). Shouldnt he replace the o-rings and scrapers and all that stuff while hes in there (talking about the ram).

 

[achris]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Holy Schmoly, impeller has not been replaced since 2004. That thing is as cracked and crevised as my weathered face.

It's a Gen II. The impellers on those are completely different and will last a lot longer and put up with far more abuse than the old ones.

Dont impeller freaks on here do it every season. And worst case scenario every 2 seasons.

On my first Gen II leg I replaced the impeller twice, the first after 5 years, the second 7 years later. And they both still looked the same as they came out of the factory. My currnet engine is 5 years old and I haven't even split the leg yet.... (Had the engine back out 6 times though... )

And as far as the end cap AChris, i know this one is newer than mine, does it not have a rebuild kit for it (to the tune of 15 bucks or so here on iboats). Shouldnt he replace the o-rings and scrapers and all that stuff while hes in there (talking about the ram).

The problem is that the end cap itself is corroding and it's the corrosion on the inside that it grabbing the piston rod. A new end cap comes complete with the O rings and seals in it, so no need to buy a seal kit too..

Chris.........

 

[Bill_Alexander]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Hi,

I appreciate everyone's comments on my boat issues. A couple questions

How did you tell that my outdrive was "Gen 2". Is that per the year of manufacture of the boat? (2004 Alpha drive)

Is there any external indication of when the water pump impeller needs to be replaced? My engine seems to warm up to 170F and stay there regardless of summer, winter, running on the flushing gear, etc. I haven't noticed any change since I got the boat 7 years ago. Apparently I am very fortunate to have the Gen 2 version as it saved me from my poor maintenance habits on the outdrive.

Happy New Year Everyone!

 

[achris]

Re: Tilt - Weak down tilt - 4.3L 2004 V6 Alpha

Hi,

I appreciate everyone's comments on my boat issues. A couple questions

How did you tell that my outdrive was "Gen 2". Is that per the year of manufacture of the boat? (2004 Alpha drive)

Anything 1991 and later is Gen II (of the drive, not the boat. Look at my signature. That's a 1972 boat, with a 2006 engine/drive. And for a while it had a 1994 engine/drive).

Is there any external indication of when the water pump impeller needs to be replaced?

No, you can only assess by inspection.

My engine seems to warm up to 170F and stay there regardless of summer, winter, running on the flushing gear, etc. I haven't noticed any change since I got the boat 7 years ago. Apparently I am very fortunate to have the Gen 2 version as it saved me from my poor maintenance habits on the outdrive.

Yep....