thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

[DU601]

I appologize if this question is boring and/or long winded, but I am struggling with this decision. I own a Princecraft Holiday DLX BT, 16'4" L x 82" B deep V. I have a Honda BF50 tiller handle pt&t. I do a lot of waterfowling on the Delaware Bay in rough water. The boat has a blind affixed to it and I hunt out of the boat. The boat weighs about 600# and I carry about 1200 pounds in persons, motor & gear. Boat is rated for 1300.<br />When fully loaded, my Honda seriously struggles to get out of the hole and my top end speed is miniscule (just barely gets above planing speed). I have been back and forth to my dealer and tried numerous props from a 10 pitch up to a 15 pitch. I have finally settled on a 4 blade 13 pitch (comp prop), but it has had little impact. I am thinking about trading in my Honda for a Yamaha 50 2 stroke. I am nervous however that the two stroke will not solve my problem either and that I will have "traded down" in motor quality, because the Honda is smooth.<br />I am searching for thoughts on whether or not a two stroke is the better motor for my type of use or not. I love the Honda in the fishing season with less weight in the boat, but I hate it during duck season. Any thoughts or similar experiences? Much thanks in advance.

 

[Reel Appeal]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

DU601,<br /> Sounds like your rig is a serious candidate for a Doel-Fin hydrofoil.These bolt on to your cavitation plate on the motor.You will notice the difference.Try one of these before you swap motors and help get that heavy deep V out of the hole.

 

[DU601]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Reel:<br />Thanks for the input. I tried one last year and it did not solve much. It got me out of the hole a little faster, but crippled my top end. Had to trim the motor way up to avoid plowing through the water. I just do not think the Honda has enough low end torque. That's why I was thinking of going to the Yam 2 stroke. Maybe I'm just overloaded?

 

[Reel Appeal]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

DU601,You are borderline overloaded,yes,i agree.<br /> You have a few variables working against you at the moment.A deep-V boat,extra weight,not enough horsepower.So,you can lose the weight,get a different boat or a larger hp engine.I would remove any excess weight which is not necessary or crucial to have on board(if possible).A new boat is a big decision.A larger hp. motor would exceed your weight limit(most likely)and lead to an unsafe condition. hmm The motors you are comparing are the same horsepower,but different weights.The 2 stroke should be lighter(in general).What is the maximum recomended horsepower for your boat?If you could go with a little more horsepower,you would still have to reduce the weight to keep it safe.Is the cavitation plate in line with the boat bottom?Is the Honda a short or long shaft motor? Can the blind fold down for less wind resistance?

 

[JB]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Howdy, DU601.<br /><br />I think you would be very disappointed if you expect a 50hp 2 stroke to provide significantly improved hole shot over a 50hp 4 stroke.<br /><br />The true difference would be minor.<br /><br />To get the performance you seem to want from a nearly limited load boat you will have to go to a bigger engine.<br /><br />Have you considered one prop for light summer use and a different prop for loaded fall use?

 

[DU601]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Reel and JB thanks for the input. Sorry I could not get back sooner. I agree that I am probably overloaded and need more power. I have tried to minimize weight, but most of it is essential. I believe the best decision is to go up 10 HP to a 60 2 stroke. It would only increase motor weight by 18 pounds from my Honda 4 stroke. The boat is rated for a 50 tiller/60 remote. I currently run two different props for fishing/hunting. I think the combination of a little more HP and a 2 stroke will be better for my application. I just do not think the Honda brings the rpms up fast enough for a loaded boat in my situation. It performs very well for fishing, terrible when hunting. Hopefully it would not be a bad decision. Thanks a lot.

 

[Jacques321]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Hi,<br /><br />If you're pretty much decided on a Yammie why not test drive the T60hp 4 stroke while your at it. This way you will get an accurate comparison of the performance of both the 60 2 stroke and 60 4 stroke. Why go back to a 2 stroke carb if you might not have to?<br /><br />To be honest, with the amount of weight you're carrying in your boat the speed and hole shot dilemma will be difficult to resolve without changing boats and HP.

 

[Capn Mike]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

I decided some years ago, on a cold, wet morning @ O-dark-30 that duck hunters were crazy and I just wouldn't do it any more. But, I'll contribute my expertise to your dilemma. How important is planing on the Deleware Bay vs. plugging along? Does it mean leaving 5 minutes or 5 hours earlier? If it's only minutes, then not getting on plane is no big deal (and you've got a great fishing boat). If speed is really important, then you really should step up to a bigger boat and motor, for comfort and safety... and underline safety. Every year duck hunters bodies are fished out of the Columbia River and/or Puget Sound because their overloaded boats were swamped. I'll bet you it's not that different in your part of the country. <br />And, if going fast is really important, you get to tell your wife how important it is to get a new boat!! (check out Sam Devlin's duck boats: www.devlinboat.com )<br />As for me, I'm going to roll over and go back to sleep...

 

[roscoe]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

I believe you are dealing with a weight vs hp vs hull design problem that is built into some Princecraft hulls. The resort I go to has several different models for rent to people without boats. Their biggest complaint is the same as yours. With a heavy load you just can't get up and go. And you are limited by the 50 hp rating of the boat. Even their 19'4" is only rated for 70hp.<br /><br />I know this is not what you wanted to hear.

 

[DU601]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Capn Mike - going fast is not as important as planing and hole shot is. When I am running in a following sea (which is very common), the motor struggles to get me out of the trough of the wave. It is not a comfortable feeling not having enough juice to get up the face of the next wave. In rough water, I do not have to run fast, just strong. As for the boat, it is a wide stable hull that takes some reasonably rough water. However, you do have to be sensible.<br /><br />321- I am considering the 60 four Yam. It is a nice motor no doubt. However, the power to weight ratio is not much better than my 50 Honda, because it is heavier.<br /><br />Roscoe- I agree. I think the Princecraft hull is inherently a dog out of the hole due to its wide transom design.

 

[BillP]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

I agree with the others that switching to a 50 2 stoke will not show much, if any, gain. You are maxing 50hp no matter how you slice it. I would go for a 70ish size 2 stroke and forget the 4 stroke. <br /><br />Before I get flogged for being anti 4 stroke take note that I have owned a flawlessly running 50 Mariner 4s since 96...along with several other 2 strokes which I like equally as well. IMHO 2 strokes are the best bang for the buck.

 

[Jacques321]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Billp,<br /><br />The problem is, his boat is only rated for a 50hp. Going to a 70 would be risky on that light a boat. <br />A dealer might be willing to overpower by 10 hp but by 20 I doubt it very much.

 

[jeff_nicholas]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

I bought a new Arima 1511 (16') with a new Yamaha C60 2 stroke. Once properly propped, the C60 pushed the boat to 32 mph and was very peppy/responsive even fully loaded. The Yamaha however, never ran right, was unreliable, apparently couldn't be fixed, it stunk, was loud, used a lot of gas...<br /><br />I traded the C60 Yamalemon for for a Honda 50. Once I had the Honda I never looked back, even though the Honda only got me to 26 mph, and with 4 people I needed a smaller pitch prop (actually only smaller pitch Piranha blades) and two of the passengers had to be forward to get her on a plane.<br /><br />I would expect a significant increase in performance with a 60 HP 2 stroke over the Honda 50, but after my experiences with 5 Yamaha shops (3 of them more than once), 2 Yamaha Regional Service Managers and 2 days in the shop for every day on the water I certainly can't recommend Yamaha. And I'd wager that if you do go 2 stroke, you're really gonna miss that Honda.

 

[Forktail]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Rather than trading for the 50 hp 2-stroke, I would trade up to the Yamaha 50 hp 4-stroke....high thrust. Your situation is exactly why they make the high thrust model.<br /><br />You'll find Honda's 50 4-stroke has a 2.09:1 gear ratio. Yamaha's standard 50 4-stroke and their 50 2-stroke both have a 1.85:1 ratio. But Yamaha's 50 4-stroke high thrust has a larger 2.33:1 ratio gear case. You also have a better selection of props. You'll notice a big difference in power under load. You'll also be surprised at the top speed. It is 9 lbs heavier.<br /><br />I will also comment that your boat seems overloaded and underpowered for what you're doing...and where you're doing it. Be careful. However I will add that it is up to the owner as to how much hp he puts on his boat. It is a best idea to go with what is stamped on the boat's rating tag, but in most states, not a requirement. If you decide to jump up, the 70 hp 2-stroke would be the motor....it's the same weight and cc as the 60.<br /><br />Be careful!

 

[Forktail]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Nick, I've got the same Arima Sea Chaser. Great little boat. <br /><br />I run a 50 hp 4-stroke Yamaha on it (I think it's rated for 100). This outboard has been flawless. It runs out about 28-29 mph with 4 adults. No problems getting on step, just a little slow. A Dolefin would probably help if I ever get around to putting one on. I only use the boat about twice a year.

 

[Forktail]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

One more thing of interest DU601.....<br /><br />I plugged the length and width of your boat into the basic formula that the Coast Guard uses to rate boat hp (for this type of boat). For some reason the manufacturer has under rated the hp for this boat. Possibly because of safety as a result of structure, design, or performance with higher hp?<br /><br />For tiller operation with 20" or more transom height, HP rating = (length X width X .8) - 25.<br /><br />This boat has a transom width of 79".<br /><br />HP rating = (16.333 ft X 6.583 ft X .8) - 25 = 61 hp. The Coast Gaurd allows raising this number to the nearest 5 hp. So hp rating could be 65 hp.<br /><br />The manufacturer has de-rated this boat about 23% from what the CG would allow them to rate it. There must be a reason.

 

[Neptune]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

DU stated his boat is rated for 60 hp when fitted with remotes; 50 as a tiller model. Not to far off from the CG formula as I understand it.

 

[Forktail]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Power ratings for tillers and remotes are a lot different.<br /><br />If the boat had a remote, the formula would be:<br /><br />hp = (length X transom width X 2) -90<br /><br />(16.333 X 6.583 X 2) - 90 = 125 hp.<br /><br />Rating the boat at 60 hp max with a remote means the manufacturer has de-rated the hp about 50%. Both the tiller and the remote ratings by the manufacturer seem low. There must be a reason. I suspect it's the overall design of the boat, or weight distribution problems with a heavier (more hp) outboard. The manufacturer must have decided during testing that the boat did not perform safely at higher hp ratings. There is nothing that says the manufacturer must tag the boat at the maximum. They are allowed to rate it at whatever they want as long as it doesn't go over the CG formula ratings.

 

[DU601]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Forktail-thanks for the info. I appreciate you doing the calculations for me. I do not know why Princecraft has underrated the hp for this boat. It is a utility v weighing only 600 pounds. I suspect that a 125 remote would be way too much hp for the boat. Also, they are made in Canada. Don't know if the same ratings apply there.<br />During fishing season, the Honda 50 pushes me and another guy along with gear at 36 mph (GPS)with a 15 pitch prop. Runs nice. Completely different story with near max weight capacity during hunting season.<br />I think I would agree with you that if I am going to consider another motor, it would be the 70 yam 2 stroke. Only because it is the same as the 60 weight wise. I imagine it would fly during fishing, possibly making it unsafe. But I do not have to run it wot -probably be better for the motor in the long run.

 

[DU601]

Re: thinking about trading my Honda 4S for a Yam 2S

Nick- what you described with your Yamaha/Honda experiences is my biggest fear. My Honda is flawless as far as reliability. Starts every time even at 10 degrees F and runs sooo smooth. The last thing I need is to get a poor performing 2 stroke. <br />However, I find myself twisting that tiller for everthing it is worth during ducking and that I am having a hard time living with.<br />Also, I know all manufacturers put out lemons, but Yamaha has always had a good reputation around here.