Survey Report - What to make of it?

[Cosmographer]

Hi All,

On the 18 year old boat that we are considering purchasing, the surveyor found a few problems. His overall assessment of the boat was "good" to "satisfactory" but he did make the following remarks regarding the hull:

"The underwater external hull was inspected on the slipway. Anti fouling in satisfactory condition. Moisture content readings were taken over a 20 hour period using the Tramex Skipper Plus moisture content meter and found slightly reduced. Small amount of paint blisters were noted port and starboard underwater external hull below chines. One blister was burst and the blister was formed beneath the primer coating. There were no visible signs of hull deterioration. The above water external hull in white painted GRP construction and found satisfactory. Minor gelcoat cracks were noted on the starboard side near the shore connection."

How serious does this sound? As I mentioned, this an 18 year old boat, and it's been in saltwater almost the entire time.

Also, he inspected the engine, but he's not a mechanic and did not open it up for a thorough inspection. He just visually inspected the engines for oil leakage, fuel leakage, belt tension, vibration, overheating and any sort of smoke from the exhaust. And then of course, observed its performance during the sea trial. Is this sufficient or for an engine of this age (about 1400 hours on each engine) or should I shell out another $2000 USD for a Caterpillar technician to do a full commission? (Btw, they are Caterpillar 3208 diesel inboard engines of 324.51 kW, if that makes any difference)

Thanks!

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

All sounds good to me. If the boat was slipped a few blisters is normal and after 18 years very good. I wouldn't pay more for an engine commision if they ran good during the sea trial.

edit: 1400 hours is low for a 3208.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

All sounds good to me. If the boat was slipped a few blisters is normal and after 18 years very good. I wouldn't pay more for an engine commision if they ran good during the sea trial.

edit: 1400 hours is low for a 3208.

Ditto on the 1408 and especially for a Cat. Diesels aren't like gas engines. Keep the fuel clean and change the oil on a regular basis and go. Additionally pay attention to ion content in the cooling water. Hopefully you have a closed cooling system. For the bucks that HAVE to be in that boat being powered with dual 3208's you probably do.

It's been a long time but with diesels you have to pay attention to ion buildup in the cooling water. If unprotected, it can pit your cylinder (sleeves) and cause problems. I had an OTR Cummins that had an Ion Filter cartridge in the cooling water which was circulated through it. It was just like a spin on oil filter on your car but specially designed for the application and had a regular change cycle just like the oil filters. If you have a operator's or service manual have a look at the maintenance items. If nothing is said about Ion Filtration in the cooling water, I'd get an email off to Cat and ask about whether or not it is a problem in marine engines and what to do with your 3208s.

I know John Deere has a fluid (pint) that you put in the engine coolant annually for the same reason. The two tractors I had did not have the ion filter as my OTR truck had, just relied on the fluid.

HTH,

Mark

 

[Cosmographer]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Thanks a lot for the info. It is extremely helpful. By closed cooling system, I assume you mean a freshwater system? If so, no, the boat uses a seawater system. Does that make any difference in terms of ion build up?

 

[Ned L]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Amost certainly the engines do have a closed freshwater cooling system (you just can't run salt water hot enough for a diesel to operate properly). After being heated by the engine the closed fresh water system then routes the water through "heat exchangers" where it is cooled by sea water. Think of a system just like in a car or a truck, but instead of running air across the radiator, sea water is run across (the heat exchanger). (Two cooling water pumps required. One fresh & one salt)

Another option is to have a keel cooler, which is basically a closed loop of piping that runs outside the hull (usually tucked in close to the keel for protection. The closed cooling system circulates though this instead of a heat exchanger. (One cooling water pump required.)

 

[MarkSee]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

or should I shell out another $2000 USD for a Caterpillar technician to do a full commission?

There's not an option for the Cat guy to do a "once over", take an oil sample to have analyzed and listen to them run at a reduced cost?

Mark

 

[Cosmographer]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Not sure about the exact services that the Cat guys will provide. I did ask my broker about the cooling system, and he told me it was a seawater, not freshwater system. But then again, he has been wrong before. Oddly enough, he doesn't seem to know a lot about boats. I'll contact the surveyor directly for more info.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Not sure about the exact services that the Cat guys will provide. I did ask my broker about the cooling system, and he told me it was a seawater, not freshwater system. But then again, he has been wrong before. Oddly enough, he doesn't seem to know a lot about boats. I'll contact the surveyor directly for more info.

Hot about some pics of the engine room. We might be able to spot the heat exchanger for you. On the ions, ask Cat. On the oil sample, OTR truckers do it all the time. Might www a major oil company, Shell Rotella T, Exxon, Chevron, Amisol, all produce truck oil an can probably direct you to a testing station. The oil test gives you an indication of the wear the engine is experiencing.

Mark

 

[Wind dog]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

3208= bullet proof, pull some oil samples, your Cat dealer can do the testing. I second the 1400hrs is low statement.

 

[QC]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Wellll . . . hmmmm.

1) All 3208s are raw water cooled, but in heavy duty Cat lingo that means it has a raw water pump that cools a heat exchanger. Yes, you have what would here be called "freshwater cooling". This is semantics, not anything more. It has a pressure cap and expansion tank, and coolant circulates around the engine.

2) 3208s biggest issues are the fuel lubricated pump. Water in the fuel equals bad.

3) Like all other marine engines the exhaust elbows and manifolds need to be inspected.

4) 1400 hours is nothing, but these are 18 year old engines. A CAT tech will do a thorough inspection and it is probably worth the money.

5) Yes, oil sampling is good, but will not highlight the areas I would be worried about. Injection pump, injectors (nozzles) and seawater cooled components (exhaust, turbo and heat exchanger)

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Wellll . . . hmmmm.

1) All 3208s are raw water cooled, but in heavy duty Cat lingo that means it has a raw water pump that cools a heat exchanger. Yes, you have what would here be called "freshwater cooling". This is semantics, not anything more. It has a pressure cap and expansion tank, and coolant circulates around the engine.

2) 3208s biggest issues are the fuel lubricated pump. Water in the fuel equals bad.

3) Like all other marine engines the exhaust elbows and manifolds need to be inspected.

4) 1400 hours is nothing, but these are 18 year old engines. A CAT tech will do a thorough inspection and it is probably worth the money.

5) Yes, oil sampling is good, but will not highlight the areas I would be worried about. Injection pump, injectors (nozzles) and seawater cooled components (exhaust, turbo and heat exchanger)

You are right as usual Mr. Moderator. I had no marine experience with the problems that my OTR experience had.

Mark

 

[Wind dog]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

The thing about oil sampling is that it's ment to be performed over the whole life of the engine, which will show any problems that may be developing. In this case the test would not be all that helpful, cept to give you a good "baseline"
Here's what the Cat guy will do, check the fluids (Any water / fuel in the oil?) check the blow-by,check color of smoke (Burning oil, over fueling, water getting into the cyliders etc) & maybe run the valves. That's about all he could do. I was a cat mechanic for about 12-13 years. Tractors not boats but Cat yellow is Cat yellow.

Good luck with her, if you purcahse it.

 

[QC]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

You are right as usual Mr. Moderator. I had no marine experience with the problems that my OTR experience had.

Mark

All good Mark, I was not posting in reference to any of your posts. For those that don't know I spent the first 25+ years of my career at a CAT dealership. All engine. 3208s and I grew up together. Literally. Funny how in the Marine biz they are considered "bullet proof". In the truck biz they were not well thought of. Neither is completely accurate. The injection pump design was only shared with one other CAT engine, and they were the only ones that were fuel lubricated and were called "Sleeve Metered". That was probably the weak link, but good water seperators and filtration went a long way to solving that issue. I agree with Wind dog on oil sampling. Need a trend, although it can spot big issues as well.

 

[emoney]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Hours are good and low for a diesel. My Universal had 3k hours when I sold it and she still fired right after the glow plugs warmed.

On a side note: is $2k normal for a "CAT Guy" to inspect those motors? Seems kinda high if what he's doing is close to what Wind Dog listed.

 

[Labman55]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

I would take the oil filters in and have them cut apart also, it's a service that Cat offers here. They check for any metal fragments lodged in the filter and will tell you if it is just general "wear and tear" pieces or if it is something more serious.

 

[Cajun Captain]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

I would have a Cat mechanic take a look at it, take an oil sample. 3208 Cats are almost indestructible!!!

 

[Cosmographer]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Hi everyone, thank you for the advice and information regarding the engines. I have contacted the surveyor and he has confirmed that this is a closed cooling system. I have also made a list of all the items you guys mentioned and sent that to the local cat dealership to get quotes on the inspection costs.

Thanks again for all the help, and if any of u guys come to Hong Kong, I'll treat you to a cruise on Victoria harbor

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

Thanks again for all the help, and if any of u guys come to Hong Kong, I'll treat you to a cruise on Victoria harbor

Thank a lot man, but I'll pass. Big Grin

 

[Wind dog]

Re: Survey Report - What to make of it?

All good Mark, I was not posting in reference to any of your posts. For those that don't know I spent the first 25+ years of my career at a CAT dealership. All engine. 3208s and I grew up together. Literally. Funny how in the Marine biz they are considered "bullet proof". In the truck biz they were not well thought of. Neither is completely accurate. The injection pump design was only shared with one other CAT engine, and they were the only ones that were fuel lubricated and were called "Sleeve Metered". That was probably the weak link, but good water seperators and filtration went a long way to solving that issue. I agree with Wind dog on oil sampling. Need a trend, although it can spot big issues as well.

When you cut your finger does it bleed Cat Yellow too? Sometimes I miss the yellow equipment!