Starting Problem?***Final Update***

[Boomyal]

My son's '87 2 liter 4 cylinder TBI injected engine is experiencing morning starting problems. I removed the air filter to watch the injector as he cranks it and it appears to be delivering appropriate fuel. I give it a bare whiff of starting fluid and it fires right up but runs kinda rough. Once running, the injector is delivering a steady flow of fuel even though it is not running smooth. The idle seems to keep 'hunting'. It eventually smooths out and encounters no starting problems the rest of the day.<br /><br />The spark plugs are Bosch Platinums and I have heard some not so good reports on these. Oh, also the check engine light comes on but will go out on it's own, intermittantly. It has only started recently, since morning temperatures have been in the 50's.<br /><br />Without being able to read the codes, this sounds like it could be a plug issue. Any thoughts?

 

[Terry H]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

I would say send him down to Autozone to read the codes...the codes are where you start, and will lilely find the problem...just a thought

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

No Autozones in my area, Chief, and Napa does not read codes.

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Fuel pressure regulator, perhaps? Had similar problem on '90 3.1 V6.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Boomyal, some codes can be read by flashes of the check light (need to jump terminals). What kind of car is it? <br /><br />Aldo

 

[brother chris]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Dunaruna is right....you can get the codes off the internet. It's easy to do.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Originally posted by Dunaruna:<br /> Boomyal, some codes can be read by flashes of the check light (need to jump terminals). What kind of car is it? <br /><br />Aldo

It's a 1987 Pontiac Sunbird with a 2.0 liter overhead cam motor.

 

[jimr]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

first goto napa and get a set of regular not platinum ac delco plugs,gap them and put them in and throw them boschs out. next find out what codes are present.you can use a paper clip to jump the aldl connector or get a code reader. chances are you have a bad temp sensor or IAC.can you check the fuel pressure? also might have a vacuum leak not being there makes it tough to diagnosis

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Boomyal, I believe the Sunbird 2.0L is the GM 'World Engine' common to many different vehicles (Early eighties it was opel Germany and then GM). The following it a C&P from my EFI manual. Being in Australia its possible the codes are different to the U.S, if so, I'm wasting yours and my time with this - but its worth a try.<br /><br />FWIW, temp sensors are common culprits for these types of faults, the computer does battle with the TPS (hunting) until warm up is achieved.<br />Connect the diagnostic test terminal to ground (terminal B).<br /><br />Fault Codes<br /><br />The Two Digit Fault Codes are read as flashes of the Check Engine Lamp.<br />The First Set of Flashes represents the Tens.<br />The Second Set of Flashes represent the Units.<br />There will be a 1.2 Second Pause between the Tens and Units.<br />Each Code will be displayed Three Times before moving on to the next Code.<br />If more than one Code is present, they will be displayed in ascending order.<br />The sequence will be repeated.<br /> <br />If NO Fault Codes are stored in Memory;<br />A Code 12 will be displayed.<br /><br />System Malfunctions fall into Two Categories, Hard Faults and Intermittent Faults.<br />Faults of Either Type will cause a Fault Code to be stored in Memory.<br /><br />Hard Faults<br />Hard Faults cause the Check Engine Lamp to be illuminated whenever the Engine is Running.<br /><br />Intermittent Faults<br />Intermittent Faults cause the Check Engine Lamp to be illuminated while the Fault is Present.<br />It will go out approximately Ten Seconds after the Fault Disappears.<br /><br />Fault Code Erasure<br />Remove the ENG COMP Fusible Link for more than 15 Seconds.<br />Or disconnect the Negative Battery Terminal for more than 15 Seconds.<br /> <br />Whenever Fault Codes are erased from Memory;<br />Short Term and Long Term Fuel Trim Memory is also Erased.<br />This could result in an Engine Running Poorly for a Short Period after Memory Erasure.<br />It will be necessary to carry out the Relearn Procedure. <br /><br />Fault Code Extraction<br />There are Two Modes of Fault Code Extraction.<br />Diagnostic Mode and Field Service Mode.<br /><br />Diagnostic Mode:<br />Ignition ON<br />Connect the Diagnostic Test Terminal on the Diagnostic Connector to Ground.<br />Read Fault Codes as flashes of the Check Engine Lamp.<br />This Sequence will continue;<br />While ever the System remains in Diagnostic Mode with the Ignition Switch ON.<br /><br />Field Service Mode<br />To Implement Field Service Mode:<br />1. Repair any Faults indicated by Codes in Memory.<br />2. Start Engine.<br />3. Connect the Diagnostic Test Terminal on the Diagnostic Connector to Ground.<br />In this Mode;<br />The Check Engine Lamp Flash Rate will be 2.5 Flashes per Second.<br />This indicates that the System is operating in Open Loop Mode.<br />(Not acting on the Oxygen Sensor Output)<br />When the Engine has been operating for 2 Minutes at 1500 to 1800 RPM<br />The Oxygen Sensor will have reached Operating Temperature.<br />The Check Engine Lamp Flash Rate will be 1 Flash per Second.<br />This indicates that the System has entered Closed Loop Mode. <br />(Acting on the Oxygen Sensor Output)<br />Once in Closed Loop Mode;<br />The Air / Fuel Ratio will be indicated by;<br />The Period that the Check Engine Lamp is ON<br />Compared to the Period that the Check Engine Lamp is OFF.<br />If the Check Engine Lamp is OFF All or Most of the Time;<br />A Lean Mixture is Indicated.<br />If the Check Engine Lamp is ON All or Most of the Time;<br />A Rich Mixture is Indicated.<br />Correct Stoichiometric Air / Fuel Ratio is indicated by an Equal ON / OFF Period.<br />The Air /Fuel Ratio may be Evaluated by;<br />The Vehicle being Driven in Field Service Mode at Any Steady Speed and<br />Observation of the Check Engine Lamp Flash Rate.<br />This is useful in Diagnosing any Driveability Problems caused by Incorrect Fuel Delivery.<br /> <br />Fault Code Table<br /><br />Code # Circuit and Status <br />12 No Fault Present <br />13 Oxygen Sensor Voltage not Changing <br />14 Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor Voltage Low <br />15 Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor Voltage High <br />21 Throttle Position Sensor Voltage High <br />22 Throttle Position Sensor Voltage Low <br />23 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor Voltage High <br />24 Vehicle Speed Sensor Fault <br />25 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor Voltage Low<br />33 Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor Voltage Too High <br />34 Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor Voltage Too Low<br />41 No Crankshaft Reference while Cranking <br />42 Electronic Spark Timing Circuit Fault<br />43 Knock Sensor Open or Shorted<br />44 Oxygen Sensor Voltage Low (Lean)<br />45 Oxygen Sensor Voltage High (Rich)<br />51 Memcal Error<br />55 Analogue to Digital Error

 

[snapperbait]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Dunaruna's info is correct for U.S. GM vehicles...

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Dunaruna's info is correct for U.S. GM vehicles... [/quote]<br /><br />I guess that is why I had to go buy a bunch of metric tools when we did the head gasket! World Car, humph. Hey, maybe the UN built it... <br /><br />(update to this mornings occurance)<br />Once the car warmed up, the 'check engine' lite went out (intermittent fault), even before stopping a restarting, and the problem, as usual, did not repeat the balance of the day. <br /><br />Can misfiring plugs cause a 'check engine' lite? I don't see a code for it. My '97 E150 had a misfiring plug at 102k miles. It did lite the 'check engine' lite. I know the later vehicles have a different generation diagnostic system, though.<br /><br />I will go out with my son in the morning and see if it repeats. I'll take a paper clip with me in case it does. <br /><br />Thanks for all your responses.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

O/k, I'll probably get slammed for this but here goes: You may have faulty plugs but thats not what is causing your current problem. I was thinking along the same lines as jimr (but he types faster). Temp sensor or vac leak. Temp sensor because the computer takes that reading (especially when cold) and tells the idle air control valve (IACV) what to do. Vac leak because a leaking intake manifold can seal itself when warmed up. The hunting is the IACV getting confused - either the computer is giving it to many instructions or a vac leak is upsetting its operation. Your intermittent check light could be the temp sensor falling in & out of set parameters. Need to get codes and go from there. I don't think its a fuel pressure/delivery problem either. The fuel pump and pressure regulator are not connected to the closed loop system - they don't know when its hot or cold, they don't know when the temp sensor fails - they are either working or they ain't. A vaccum leak will actually increase fuel pressure.<br /><br /> NOT world car, world engine. It started its life as a 1.6 carby back in the early eighties, evolved through the years and is still in production today. Became very popular with Nissan, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and of course GM. It got the tag of 'World Engine' because of its popularity. I don't know if that is an official tag. One of the factories that assemble the engine is in my home town, my Father worked there in the eighties. It is just possible that the flywheel/drive plate on your sons car was balanced by my dad.<br /><br />Ain't this a small world.<br /><br />Aldo

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Boomyal<br />Does it start easier if you hold the throttle half way down? If so, check the Idle Air Control...they can stick when cold causing hard starts....

 

[aspeck]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Boom, all kinds of things can cause it, in reality. Yes, a misfiring plug can cause it because the fuel is not burned and the exhaust gas is too rich, causing the oxygen sensor to "misfire." However, if that were complete reason, it would happen at more than just first start. It may contribute to the problem, and I would recommend sticking with AC/Delco's in your GM product (have always worked best for us), but your engine fault code will lead you to the poor cold start problem.<br /><br />The computer in that little 4 banger will be working overtime when the engine is cold, reading all the sensors and trying to get the idle and fuel mixture at optimum to give you the best fuel economy and smooth idling (meaning the idle could be all over the place till the engine warms up). When it is doing this, if one of the sensors is fouled, sticking, shorted, or faulty, you will have a hard start.<br /><br />Check the codes, then go from there. BTW, if it is oxygen sensor, (which it probably isn't in this case)you can try to remove it, heat the tip till it is cherry red, let it cool, and reinstall it. That will work several times before it carbons up too much and you have to pay for a new one.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

I finally got around to a) reading the codes, b) replacing the Bosch Platinum spark plugs with AC Delco's. I should have just used Autolites Copper Cores. They cost about 2/3 rd's of the AC's.<br /><br />Went out this morning and the little 'Bird' started right up. Didn't have to get out the can of ether.<br /><br />The code read showed two codes, however. One was for the Oxygen Sensor, which is probably the original one. 104k mi, 17 y/o and recently subjected to a stream of ethylene glycol from a blown head gasket.<br /><br />The other one was for a "bypass or EST" problem, which I have no clue what that refers to.<br /><br />If it starts right up tomorrow, I'll figure it must have been the plugs. I should probably change the plug wires as well. They could be original.<br /><br />If the oxygen sensor fails, what occurs. Rich or lean?

 

[aspeck]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

If the Oxygen Sensor code was a 13, then it would be running rich, if I recall properly.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Originally posted by aspeck:<br /> If the Oxygen Sensor code was a 13, then it would be running rich, if I recall properly.

Yeah, aspeck, it was code 13. I can try your tip to resurect it. Will propane be good enough or should I use acetylene. What does super heating the tip accomplish?<br /><br />The second code was a 42.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

Propane is fine. Just get it cherry red - burn the carbon off. Should work fine.<br /><br />And you won't be sorry you got the A/C Delco's - in my experience GM vehicles just flat out work better with them.<br /><br />After cleaning and replacing the O2 sensor, disconnect the battery for 10 - 15 seconds. That clears the computer. Now, with the new plugs and the clean O2 sensor, see how the starting goes and see if you get any repeat codes.<br /><br />Good Luck.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

As usual, some things just take time. <br /><br />As noted b4, the starting problem was solved (three weeks ago) by junking the Bosch Platinum plugs, in favor of AC Delco's. Once done the 'check' engine lite only flashed occasionaly, which I assumed was for the second code, related to the Oxygen Sensor.<br /><br />Today, I reset the ECM, pulled out the OS and, as Aspeck recommended, heated it up cherry red, and reinstalled it.<br /><br />Voila! No more occasional 'check engine' lite.<br /><br />Really appreciate all of the input on this post.<br /><br />You all are GREAT!!! Thanks!

 

[aspeck]

Re: Starting Problem?***Final Update***

You are welcome - now keep those replacement parts AC Delco, the little 'Bird will like it better!