Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

[RobF1970]

O.K. 1990 60 Evinrude. I'm not by any means doubting the Reeves method. I just have a question though, because I'm still having trouble with my motor opening up. On the breather of my engine, it has 19 degrees BTC on it. I was told to time it at 15 degrees (4 less). I'm just wondering why would evinrude have the 19 degrees on it, if it needs to be timed 4 degrees less. I'm just trying to get this thing running. I've had several other posts on here and have already checked everything to compression, to installing new fuel lines, to installing new electric choke gasket and cover.... etc.

 

[retiredfornow]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

If you read the thread in the Top Secret file, he tells you that "The reasoning for the 4? difference is that when the engine is actually running, due to the nature of the solid state ignition componets, the engine gains the extra 4?."
I followed his method and my 1988 60hp rude runs like a screamin' deamon. So set the timing at 15. I was going to check the 19 while having the wife run the boat WOT on a smooth straight-a-way, but I haven't got the courage up yet. LOL
Good luck.

 

[jherlyn]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

I haven't had any luck with the J. Reeves method either. I bought a service manual for mine and nowhere in it does it state about "the necessity to retard the timing because of the solid state ignition blah blah blah" The way it tells you to time it is to put a test wheel on it. Something like an old prop that you cut the blades off of, and then check the timing when idle to make sure its right, and then open up the engine to 3200 RPMs and make sure it is advanced to EXACTLY where the engine says it should be advanced to.

Also, you need to pull the top spark plug and make sure TDC matches where the flywheel says TDC, that's how I found out my flywheel sheered its key pin.

come to think of it, I haven't really had any luck with J. reeves methods.............

 

[Rick.]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

Agree with above. It does work. Best of luck. Rick.

EDIT: Agree with 2 above not 1 above. Must have slipped that in while I was typing.

 

[RobF1970]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

O.k. I've only been working on this SOB about a month now and have done everything I know or have read to do. Good compression, new fuel lines, timing set at 15 degrees (4 below the 19 prescribed), found leak on electric choke cover (air bubbles in fuel lines) but replaced with new one, new spark plugs (3 sets), fuel pump (ex-vro2 bypassed) working fine, blah, blah, crap. The motor will crank up fine in OR out of the water and idle fine.... But, put it in forward and give it some throttle, and there she goes to crap. Won't open up, surges in and out of power. The ONLY thing that I have not replaced is the reed valves. I do have a problem with carbs spitting back fuel. Fuel will be all over the bottom of the engine cover after running it. So..... I can't afford to take this thing to a boat mechanic (Wife and kids to feed, lol), but anyway, I usually do o.k. with mechanic work if I have guidelines to follow. I have some questions here if yall could please answer: (1) Do you think its the reed valves since carbs are spitting? (2) Do you think its a link & sync issue? I don't have a service manual and really can't afford one right now. (3) What should the base (idle) timing be? Or is it that important since like I said above, it's idling fine. (4) Should the carbs begin to open BEFORE the spark advance starts to advance, or should they both begin at the same time when you put it in forward position? (Mine both move at the same time). Those 2 set screws on the throttle/spark advance confuse me. I don't have a clue where they should be set. Sorry for the long post here..... I just at my wits end and I've missed alot of largemouth bass fishing lately!! By the way, it's a 1990 evinrude 60 hp.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

I haven't had any luck with the J. Reeves method either. I bought a service manual for mine and nowhere in it does it state about "the necessity to retard the timing because of the solid state ignition blah blah blah" The way it tells you to time it is to put a test wheel on it. Something like an old prop that you cut the blades off of, and then check the timing when idle to make sure its right, and then open up the engine to 3200 RPMs and make sure it is advanced to EXACTLY where the engine says it should be advanced to.

Also, you need to pull the top spark plug and make sure TDC matches where the flywheel says TDC, that's how I found out my flywheel sheered its key pin.

come to think of it, I haven't really had any luck with J. reeves methods.............

1)You wouldn't be retarding the timing, you'd be advancing it.
2) A test wheel is NOTHING like "an old prop that you cut the blades off of", it is a purpose made component that will properly load up an outboard in a test tank without any of the pitfalls of a normal prop...surging...cavitation etc.
3) I think your lack of success with the Joe Reeve's method is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything inherent in his procedure....:facepalm: Joe really does know his stuff!

 

[RobF1970]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

Please just help ME and forget about the little argument I guess I started here. LOL.

 

[jherlyn]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

It could very well be a reed problem, It shouldn't be spitting fuel back. My butterfly valves open up before the advance timing starts to move, and then about halfway through them opening up it hits its stop screw and the rest of the throttle goes. As far as idle timing, different on every engine, so look for specs on line. some are TDC others are a certain degree before or after TDC. If I get a chance this afternoon I'll look for ya.

And the problem I have with J. Reeves's method is that It is NOT recommended by Evinrude. I have asked all the boat mechanics in my town about it and they all say it isn't the accurate way to time the engine. That the only way to get the CORRECT timing is to time at idle and 3200 rpms (for an evinrude that is) I have nothing against J. reeves, but I also did his "rectifier test" and according to him my rectifier was bad. read BOTH ways. Turns out it wasn't. Follow the evinrude manuals because they come from EVINRUDE and J. Reeves, for all you know, could be a crazy man in his basement. that's all I'm sayin'

 

[archcycle]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

I haven't had any luck with the J. Reeves method either. I bought a service manual for mine and nowhere in it does it state about "the necessity to retard the timing because of the solid state ignition blah blah blah" The way it tells you to time it is to put a test wheel on it.

You can't expect to have much luck with any methods if you don't read them fully. The two methods have nothing in common for arriving at the WOT timing except for a timing light. If you have a test tank and a test wheel (you probably don't) great, and if you feel like hanging off the back of your transom over a moving flywheel at WOT, go for it.

 

[DargelJohn]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

Just a comment on the Joe Reeves method. Something I did initially wrong was not connecting a spark tester to the #1 spark plug wire. When I did this I found I was off by 6 degrees. Big difference.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

if you feel like hanging off the back of your transom over a moving flywheel at WOT, go for it.

Arch...I do just that...true.
I have a modified Reeves method that works. No QS disabling, no setting the timing retarded by 4 degrees....Easy and it works.
Once I have it set using this method, I then hang off the back with my timing light to verify.

Anyone want to know the method, search my past posts. A whole lot to re-type. Anyone want to talk about it, PM me your phone number.

 

[CharlieB]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

The ONLY thing that I have not replaced is the reed valves. I do have a problem with carbs spitting back fuel. Fuel will be all over the bottom of the engine cover after running it.

D'oh! Sorry for the sarcasm.

There are only a few things that will cause spitting back out the carbs, lean cough, timing way off, and reeds.

Take them out and LOOK at them, any light visable more than the thickness of a sheet of paper, replace them.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

I went ahead and found it...

Try this method....
Start motor on muffs or in tub or in water. Warm up to operating temp. Shut off motor.
Disconnect the timer base from the linkage. Set throttle to idle position at the control. Now, the only thing that is free to move is the timer base, since it is disconnected from the linkage.
Fabricat a long hook tool from a coat hanger and hook to timer base where the linkage connects. Easy to move it this way.
Set up your timing light, get everything ready, water at the Water pump, etc. Manually push the timer base back to idle position, and start the motor. Wait for Quick Start to kick out (if you have it).

Manually move the timer base to the WOT position. Note that the throttles ARE NOT MOVING. The engine will rev up even tho the throttles are closed. Do not be alarmed at this. Check/set timing for proper spec for your engine.

Reconnect the timer base to the linkage.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

D'oh! Sorry for the sarcasm.

There are only a few things that will cause spitting back out the carbs, lean cough, timing way off, and reeds.

Take them out and LOOK at them, any light visable more than the thickness of a sheet of paper, replace them.

Last thing I would be looking at is reeds. Too hard to get to, and many other things that would cause spitting back that are easier to check. Look at carb sync. One butterfly that is open and the others closed will cause the open one to spit out.
It is not clear at all from your posts where the gas is coming from. You running with the air silencer ON or OFF? If ON, the gas you are seeing would be caught by the silencer, instead of going into the engine lower pan. If OFF, then you should be able to absolutely SEE which carb is spitting back. It is VERY obvious. No way all three reeds are bad.....

 

[retiredfornow]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

With carb cover off, and throttle in neutral, all 3 butterflies should be closed. S L O W L Y move the linkage and see if all 3 butterflies move at the same time. With the throttle in the WOT position, all 3 butterflies should be horizontal. You can tell this by looking at the set pins in the linkage, right next to the carb bodies, on the starboard side of the carbs. They should be straight up and down. Mine has holes in them and you can sight right thru all three pins. If one is off just a little, that's where your spitting is coming from. You can get an original Evinrude manual on Evilbay for about $35. Glad I did that. Don't get a generic one, POS.
Also, is it the original prop? If someone slid on a real high pitch prop, the motor won't turn it quick enough while in the water. That was part of my problem. Mine had a 23 pitch, should have been a 15! One hell of a difference! Good luck, keep the questions coming.

 

[DargelJohn]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

I went ahead and found it...

Try this method....
Start motor on muffs or in tub or in water. Warm up to operating temp. Shut off motor.
Disconnect the timer base from the linkage. Set throttle to idle position at the control. Now, the only thing that is free to move is the timer base, since it is disconnected from the linkage.
Fabricat a long hook tool from a coat hanger and hook to timer base where the linkage connects. Easy to move it this way.
Set up your timing light, get everything ready, water at the Water pump, etc. Manually push the timer base back to idle position, and start the motor. Wait for Quick Start to kick out (if you have it).

Manually move the timer base to the WOT position. Note that the throttles ARE NOT MOVING. The engine will rev up even tho the throttles are closed. Do not be alarmed at this. Check/set timing for proper spec for your engine.

Reconnect the timer base to the linkage.

Your method only works on certain models? My 88SPL has a threaded rod, w/thumb wheel, that connects to the timer base. So, The linkage rod has to be connected on mine, otherwise I can't adjust the timing.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

Your method only works on certain models? My 88SPL has a threaded rod, w/thumb wheel, that connects to the timer base. So, The linkage rod has to be connected on mine, otherwise I can't adjust the timing.

No, I think it should work on all models. Maybe not... You will find somewhere in that linkage a place where you can disconnect the timer base from the rest of the linkage. Find the most convenient place. They all disconnect somewhere. You will have to figure out the best place depending on your linkage.

If you cannot disconnect, then this will not work. For this to work, the engine must be running, throttles closed, and the timerbase fully rotated to WOT stop position.

If you have no WOT stop, then disconnect the throttle butterflies at one convenient linkage point and wire them all closed....then advance whole linkage for your testing. There will be a place somewhere on your motor that you can accomplish this.

JUST MAKE SURE you do not allow the butterflies to open as you advance the timer base.
Butterflies closed, advance TB, check/set timing.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

And the problem I have with J. Reeves's method is that It is NOT recommended by Evinrude. I have asked all the boat mechanics in my town about it and they all say it isn't the accurate way to time the engine. That the only way to get the CORRECT timing is to time at idle and 3200 rpms (for an evinrude that is) I have nothing against J. reeves, but I also did his "rectifier test" and according to him my rectifier was bad. read BOTH ways. Turns out it wasn't. Follow the evinrude manuals because they come from EVINRUDE and J. Reeves, for all you know, could be a crazy man in his basement. that's all I'm sayin'

Frankly little man, I don't give a damn if you have anything against me or not although it does appear to me and others that you have a chip on your shoulder and a rock to throw my way for some reason or another, and as for whatever problem you may encounter in the future, you can take it to the head man represented by any church in town. You may need some help figuring that out.

For the record, if a rectifier circuit (diode) shows a ohm reading in both directions, it's bad and there's no two ways about it. A variation of that test would be due to either ones failure to understand the proper function of the test equipment, a somewhat lack of reading ability, or a comprehending issue of what I explain.... issues that in over 30 plus years no one else has had a problem in understanding.

Pertaining to the minus 4 degree timing procedure I speak of, a timing procedure that can be safely accomplished on many OMC engines that DO NOT incorporate the Fast Sart feature... and some that do have the Fast Start feature if one knows exactly how to disable that feature, I would add the following.

No, you will not find that procedure in any OMC or 3rd party manual. This procedure is one that I and a few OMC Factory Reps came up with over a period of time. Rather that have it incorporated within a manual, it was rather put out in bulletim form. I could state exactly what number bulletin as I'm staring at it at the moment but I hesitate to do your legwork for you. Your sarcastic and insulting innuendos allow me to only reply in like manner. Look it up yourself.

How many truly experienced OMC mechanics do you have in your town? No, stop, don't answer that. I probably couldn't comprehend such a high figure. I would assume that your "town mechanics" would be the ones that are members of this website's forum and possibly other sites that ask questions for the more experienced members to answer... and that's fine, that what they should do and that's why we're here... to help. Our knowledge, the knowledge of many, has been accumulated over a period of many years, knowledge that will not be found in any manual, and is given freely to just about anyone that asks.

But when someone comes along that obviously has an axe to grind, any advice that I'd have to offer comes to a screeching halt. You have a hellava lot to learn little man, especially when it comes to diplomacy.

I backed out from giving advice on this site on a temporary basis as my wife is quite ill and she requires the majority of my time, and nothing further will follow this reply for obvious reasons. Also, if I am going to match wits with another, I would prefer it to be someone that is capable of fighting more than half the battle.

Now, it's unlikely that the powers that be on this site will let this reply stay visible for any great length of time, and I may even be banned for replying in the manner I've done here. That is of course their prerogative and I understand that aspect of the board.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

Just a comment on the Joe Reeves method. Something I did initially wrong was not connecting a spark tester to the #1 spark plug wire. When I did this I found I was off by 6 degrees. Big difference.

Hi Joe. Hope you are making out as well as you can.

DJ, you are NOT supposed to have a spark tester inline with the plug wire and plug when doing the J Reeves method. Plug wire on the plug like normal running, and a timing light on #1 plug wire.

 

[DargelJohn]

Re: Spark Advance Question (Joe Reeves Method)

Hi Joe. Hope you are making out as well as you can.

DJ, you are NOT supposed to have a spark tester inline with the plug wire and plug when doing the J Reeves method. Plug wire on the plug like normal running, and a timing light on #1 plug wire.

Just to be clear, I did not have the spark tester "inline".

-All spark plugs were removed.
-Spark tester was connected to #1 plug boot.
-Induction Timing pickup connected to #1 wire.