Sonar Kills? ** update **

[WillyBWright]

Off my Yahoo news...<br /><br />KEY WEST, Fla. - The Navy and marine wildlife experts are investigating whether the beaching of dozens of dolphins in the Florida Keys followed the use of sonar by a submarine on a training exercise off the coast. <br /><br />More than 20 rough-toothed dolphins have died since Wednesday's beaching by about 70 of the marine mammals, Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary spokeswoman Cheva Heck said Saturday. <br /><br />A day before the dolphins swam ashore, the USS Philadelphia had conducted exercises with Navy SEALs off Key West, about 45 miles from Marathon, where the dolphins became stranded. <br /><br />Navy officials refused to say if the submarine, based at Groton, Conn., used its sonar during the exercise. <br /><br />Some scientists surmise that loud bursts of sonar, which can be heard for miles in the water, may disorient or scare marine mammals, causing them to surface too quickly and suffer the equivalent of what divers know as the bends — when sudden decompression forms nitrogen bubbles in tissue. <br /><br />"This is absolutely high priority," said Lt. Cdr. Jensin Sommer, spokeswoman for Norfolk, Va.-based Naval Submarine Forces. "We are looking into this. We want to be good stewards of the environment, and any time there are strandings of marine mammals, we look into the operations and locations of any ships that might have been operating in that area." <br /><br />Experts are conducting necropsies on the dead dolphins, looking for signs of trauma that could have been inflicted by loud noises.<br /><br />***<br /><br />I wonder ... if we get blasted by loud sound waves, our hearing can be severely damaged to the point of deafness. Sonar is Sound. I expect certain marine mammals are quite capable of "hearing" our sonar. I would imagine that a "deafness" could result under similar circumstances. Like bats, dolphins and whales navigate largely by sound. Such damage would would severely adversely affect that ability. To a dolphin or whale, it would be tantamount to going blind and deaf when it comes to getting around, even though their vision and auditory hearing might still be fine. Consider them as separate senses ... sight, hearing, and sonar. We use vision and hearing to get around. We don't have sonar. Am I onto something, or is Navy sonar even strong enough?<br /><br />Then again we're in air and they're in water. In the water, sound can hurt. Tap two rocks together in air and you hear it, but no big deal. Do it when you're underwater and it stings the ear for that instant. In water, might it take far less "sound" than we air-breathers would expect to do permanent damage?<br /><br />They don't seem to be finding biological reasons for mass beachings and I would think this "Bends" thing would've been caught long ago.<br /><br />I think it might just be a case of the blind leading the blind.

 

[JB]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Mass beachings were common long before sonar was invented.<br /><br />I remember a cartoon in The New Yorker in the late 40s.<br /><br />Two cave men are sitting in a cave. Outside it is pouring rain. One CM says to the other, "We didn't have this kind of weather before those Neanderthals started testing bows and arrows."

 

[rolmops]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

A few years ago I read an article about whale conservation. It mentioned 2 sperm whales colliding into a super tanker.Both animals died.There was a japanese "whale research" boat in the area that harvested the whales. They checked out the dead bodies and came to the conclusion that both whales were completely deaf at the time of the collision.<br />Just imagine the amount of noise these animals have to deal with,with all the huge engine driven vessels on the oceans. Add to that, sonar waves and there may well be a connection between these things and marine animals beaching themselves.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Granted, JB. But might there not be other natural sources that do the same thing, such as siezmic activity? It might not even be our sonar except that the ship carrying it happens to be there when the "deafening" occurs. I mean our Navy is all over the place. They could simply be in the area of beachings just by chance.<br /><br />It just bums me out I guess. The media seems to be pushing a "Mass Suicide" theory and I just don't buy it. I think it's mechanical, not psychological. But then Im a mechanic. To me, everthing's mechanical.

 

[KRS]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

PETA and groups that operate under the "watchdog" blanket would love to shut down our military and cease any testing of sonar and such. The use of military sonar has been a topic of debate for long over a decade. I wouldn't put it past some nut-bag group to 1) find out where the exercise will be 2) poison the water (or some such thing) to kill the animals 3) then decry all things military because it's killing the planet.<br /><br />I have a brother on a fast-attack boat (Pearl Harbor) and if it wasn't for them, our shores wouldn't be safe.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

willy<br /> dont know about the deaf part but we could light off our sonar on the DDG-51 and killall the fish and minnows around the boat. seems the oxygen bearing parts(air pockets)in a fish absorb the energy and it takes them out. explains why the crabs would feast on the stunned and dying fish with no apperant harm. sonar is also a weapon against "swimmers" in the water. if we suspected a "swimmer" ping sonar at full power and the swimmer is toast. fwd berthing was and is a noise hazard area. hearing protection Must be worn in that area when active pinging is in progress.<br /> nothing like sleeping with your muffs on .

 

[ob]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

JB raises an interseting observation.I also can understand the concern that sonar may or may not have on the dolphin beaching or death phenomena.I'm wondering what the number of documented or witnessed cases of dolphin/whale beachings/disorientation is before sonar was widely used.Surely dolphin experts in the recent past have had this same question.I'm wondering if they have come to a conclusion, as I honestly don't know.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> A few years ago I read an article about whale conservation. It mentioned 2 sperm whales colliding into a super tanker.Both animals died.There was a japanese "whale research" boat in the area that harvested the whales. They checked out the dead bodies and came to the conclusion that both whales were completely deaf at the time of the collision.<br />Just imagine the amount of noise these animals have to deal with,with all the huge engine driven vessels on the oceans. Add to that, sonar waves and there may well be a connection between these things and marine animals beaching themselves.

....ie, man bad! American man, of course, is the worst of the lot. <br />He should flagellate himself and crawl back into his cave to die.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

It seems posible on the face of it, that sonar could adversely effect creatures that use a form of it for navigation and communication.<br />Should we just dismiss the occurances of beachings? Should we ground the US sub fleet?<br />Where is sanity in iether coarse of action?<br />Why not let the civalian and military scientists gather the facts, and base future action accordingly?

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

i'm almost certain sonar played a part in the beachings, if a sub was condcting exercises in the area. has anyone else been onboard a ship when it's gettting actively pinged by a sub's sonar? it scares you to death the first time it happens. the whole ship "pings", and you feel it in your whole body. imagine a group of dolphins, who rely on sound transmission as their strongest sense, getting blasted by the sound waves. but hey, sh*t happens.

 

[NYMINUTE]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

It has to be proven, but what is the cost to the dolphins to prove it tis sonar? Sad situation either way.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Just because mass beachings occur without sonar around doesn't mean that sonar won't cause it to happen, just means there are other causes as well.<br /><br />I'm glad that our military is taking steps to determine whether this is true, and I'm confident we can find a way to conduct our defense without unnecessarily endangering marine life.<br /><br />I can be a good American and still care about the environment.<br /><br />btw rodbolt, what is a "swimmer"

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Yesterday my kids got a postcard from my brother. He's been wintering in the Keys. Otherwise he's up on Lake Superior. I was reading thru it and here on the last sentence...Mar 4 "Today some dolphins beached themselves, so I volunteered to help." We've been looking for him on the News, but no luck. My son had to take the postcard to school to show his class.<br /><br />He's been to the Virgin Islands to help with Hurricane damage, out on the west coast on a whale ship converted to whale research, and captains on Superior. But somehow when he looks back on his life, I think this experience will always stand out. Way to go, Bro!

 

[dolluper]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

As JB said these things have being going on since earth was invented and the scienitists can only say it has to do with populations[or cults ]it is a natural finomana but in the case of Dolphins who knows I'm sure the wako's will go above scienific fact to reach their concluctions and have many [sheep] following them!!!

 

[jtexas]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Here's a theory:<br />The dolphins are beaching themselves to protest the proliferation of nuclear submarines. The whales are just giving in to peer pressure (didn't your Mom ever say, "if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?").

 

[KaGee]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Life has to be hell being a Pilot Whale... all the peer pressure to fit in with the pod.

 

[SCO]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Right on 12 footer. That's what we should be doing with global warming etc etc, but things have become way too polarized/ political. If a pod of whales is near enough to damage to deafness, seems only courteous to reduce the ping strength accordingly. This is a sad story. Supposedly in the olden days, blue whales could communicate across oceans.

 

[Elmer Fudge]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Originally posted by 12Footer:<br /> It seems posible on the face of it, that sonar could adversely effect creatures that use a form of it for navigation and communication.<br />Should we just dismiss the occurances of beachings? Should we ground the US sub fleet?<br />Where is sanity in iether coarse of action?<br />Why not let the civalian and military scientists gather the facts, and base future action accordingly?

Precisely, Also just for the record the USA ain't the only nation with subs, there's the Russians, Chinese, French, Germans, British, even the Indians, Pakistanis and Iranians have subs,these older subs of the lesser navies around the world are by far much noiser and more polluting than ours, anyone with ideas about us grounding our subs are deluding themselves or indulging the foolhardy in grand illusions.<br />WAKE UP YOU ARE HAVING A BAD DREAM

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Sonar Kills? ** update **

Jtexas<br /> a "swimmer"is a diver in the water attempting tobreach ships security. if we lit of the 53C sonar at fullpower almost anything with lungs or air bladders in about 80 yards or so had jelly instead of tissue. we could ping or radiate. when radiating sound it sounds almost like the whales you see on TV but 1000 time s louder. sometimes I would sleep ith ear plugs and ear muffs on. anytime we had personeel in the water sonar gets tagged out until the event is over and the person,and only that perso, is allowed to tag it back in. tag outs for safty(red tag) are mandatory and sometimes frivolous but saves lives. makes sure one evolution does not kill someone doing another evolution.<br /> not all sonars have enough power to harm critters. kinda like not all radars have enough power to cook you. however some can kill at 100 feet and blind at 1000 if aimed correctly. soits more of the wattage of the radiation as well as the frequency of the sound that will disorient,defen and maim. the US is one of the few countries with the powerful equipment to do this.