so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

rsfeller

Seaman
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Messages
62
ok. i'm still confused...<br /><br />got the starting battery on #1<br />got the deep cycle on #2<br />and i've got the 1/2/both/off switch<br />so if i'm starting on #1 and doing accessories on #2, do i charge up the deep cycle on #2 with both selected? or will this cause some imbalance? there is so much great info here, but confusing at times!<br /><br />or do i start on #1 and switch to both or #2 while the engine is idling (assuming i've got a disconnect before switching) selector...
 

Beaux

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Oct 30, 2002
Messages
390
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

Shawn, <br />I have exact setup that you have on your boat. I looked back to your recent posts, but I guess a file server problem erased your last postings (if that was you I am thinking about). I am assuming you are the guy who has the perko 4 way with w/o alt. field disconnect. If so, then you are right about the method for charging. You start with the #1 battery and then you can either switch to both or #2 to charge your deep cycle. I usually switch to BOTH on dial unless I either had to use starter a lot (stay on #1) or have used a lot of accessories and didn't have to crank very long (#2). Hope that helps
 

carboncow

Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
14
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

thanks Beaux, you are correct that you helped me before. I do have the Perco but have not been able to check (since the boat is in storage for the winter) if i have the disconnect before switch, but i suspect it is.<br /><br />i was inquiring again, as i found some conflicting argumentive info on this and another site. you put to rest what i suspected, i just wanted to confirm the switch under load was OK.<br /><br />could you tell me if it's OK to charge under BOTH with #1 starter and #2 a deep cycle...or do i have to have an isolator (which again, i don't even know if i have!)...since my current configuration is duel deep cycle...i haven't had a concern, but i bought a new used starter battery off a friend<br /><br />thanks for the expertise.
 

Walt T

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Mar 16, 2002
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1,369
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

Deep cycles do not get charged properly on an alternator system. The best way to charge them is with a battery charger designed to charge deep cycles. Now I know lots of people charge their deep cycles on their boats off the engines, all I am saying is you'll get dramatically better deep cycle life if you avoid charging off the alternator. Truly understand your electrical loads, and you may find your just as well off with another starting battery.
 

carboncow

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Jan 9, 2003
Messages
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Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

disel, thank you for the info. i have been researching battery info for quite some time, and i haven't seen this opinion (on another starter battery) yet...but understand the logic of deep cycles not getting charged correctly unless they are "deep cycle" charged...<br /><br />since my boat only spends 4 to 5 months in the water i'm hoping a proper deep cycle charge every 4 to 5 months will help get it in shape. i had to deep cycles in it when i bought it, and swapped on out for a starting battery. posibly, based on your comments, i can rotate those deep cycles every month or so...while the other is at home getting the proper deep charge...<br /><br />thank you for you help. the battery disscussions are always informative and spark many new questions...<br /><br />any idea how efficient the deep cycles gets from standard alternator charge? is it a average percent less than a proper charge?
 

Walt T

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Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

The deep cycle battery is designed to be most effecient with small input and small outputs. Both need to be done over long periods. The alternator senses the need for a charge and starts charging putting out more than the deep cylce needs. Charging any battery more than it needs will result in gassing and loss of electrolyte. This then results in a shortened life, and poor performance. <br />The deep cycle has thinner plates and smaller connections inside and cannot transer the large amount of power a starting battery can. The smaller connections, and thinner plates act like smaller gauge wiring and have more resistance, thereby causing more heat inside the battery when charged at high rates with an alternator. <br />On the flip side, starting batteries dont do well in low continuos load situations. This causes the plates to flake and the material to settle at the bottom, causing a shortened life of a starting battery. If a starting battery is continously depleted more than 50% of its charge, it will have a very short life. Deep cycles are designed to avoid that flaking. Adding water to deep cycles does not extend the life. Most batteries are sealed now anyway to keep folks from re filling them.<br />You can read a series of articles I did on electrical systems and batteries here: Newsletter
 

gawinger

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Dec 9, 2002
Messages
5
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

I'm afraid I can't agree with you DieselWalt. Maybe you need to review your electrical tutorial. <br /><br />Deep-cycle batteries have 'thicker' plates and therefore less surface area for the chemical reaction to take place. These thick plates allow the deep-cycle cells to discharge farther than a starting battery without damage. These plates are farther apart than a starting battery allowing lead sulphate to build up (deep discharge) without shorting across the plates.<br /> <br />Starting batteries have thin, porous, closely-spaced plates that are damaged by constant cycling or deep discharges which erode the plates and build up sulphate, causing shorting and eventual failure. But I'm no expert, it's just what I have read.
 

Boatist

Rear Admiral
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Apr 22, 2002
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4,552
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

Merloin<br />I agree the deep cycle has thicker plates. Also starting loads will not damage the Deep cycle battery but battery may not supply enought current to start engine.<br /><br />DieselWalt<br />I have check link you gave several times and did not find battery artical. Can you point me to it. Thanks<br /><br />Shawn and Carboncow <br />Do not turn your switch with engine running unless your switch has a alternator field disconnect. You can blow your alternator diodes in a fraction of a second. With the alternator field connected if you loose the battery load, voltage will jump to hundreds of volts. Since most alternator diodes are rated a 50 peak inverse volts the output diodes blow. Also regulator can blow. No need to take a chance, switch with engine off.<br />For charging both batteries I suggest a battery isolator or a battery combiner. This way can charge both batteries without turning the switch. If your starting battery should fail then can turn to other battery and start. If your batteries are both ok can use Both setting, but if one is weak it will discharge the Good battery and leave you dead in the water.
 

petryshyn

Commander
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Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

shawn feller<br />If you run in the "Both" position, and switch to "Off" when docked, you'll satisfy the charging requirement. <br /><br />>hooking start and deep cycle batteries in parallel will not cause problems while charging.<br />>deep cycle do have thicker plates<br />>starting current will not damage them<br />>deep cycle can be charged with conventional regulated charging systems, providing they are under charge for an appropriate length of TIME.<br /><br />The issue left unaddressed is "are you running long enough after a deep discharge to replenish the deep cycle battery?"<br /><br />Boatist<br />Most alternator diodes are capable of 200 volts PIV, with the exception of Delco "CS" series which actually use a 50 volt Zener for their negative output diodes. :)
 

charleswmoore

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
105
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

My perco battery switch is a make before break switch and I'm sure most are. This means moving from battery one to both then from both to bank two the load is always present. The alternator field disconect is normally a safety factor to help take the human factor from the equation in case you go the other direction and rotate to off position prior to other battery selection. As far as having a deep cycle battery that is dicharged immediately Parr. to a charged battery regardless of the type is a no no. Just like jump starting a car. You are taking a battery capable of delivering very high currents (Excess of 400 amps)<br />and immediately tying this to a dead battery capable of absorbing the same amount.For starters (excuse the pun) the dead battery is going to source whatever current is available untill the two equalize. This is why a jumped car battery life is shortenned so much after the fact. If the plates aren't warped they will be. Also the chances of explosion is very high when doing this <br />because as the plates heat very quickly the amount of explosive fumes are accumalated inside the battery at a rate in which they can not be <br />vented to the outside, the only over thing that is needed is when the connection (internal) burns in half it goes boom. I would strongly advise that<br />a current limiting device be installed between the charging battery and the charged battery to limit the charge current below 20 amps. These are available and mainly used between large solar panels and gensets. Another item of interest is why is the "b" side of your switch even connected to a deep cycle battery???? Volvo Penta cautions against using a deep cycle battery for cranking when fuel injection is added. I would have a matched a-b battery with the deep cycle battery<br />only supporting asc when at an overnighter. Even then I would consider using a pair of deep cycle cranking batteries (Largest that would fit) and not worry about it!!!!!JUST A THOUGHT
 

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

sorry charleswmoore<br /><br />A discharged battery coupled to a fully charged battery will only result in a small current flow (5-10 amps max.)<br /> When connected in parallel while charging, each individual battery will draw the appropriate current flow according to its state of charge. e.g.:<br /><br />>a low battery will draw 35-45 amps max when 14 volts is applied to it<br />>a fully charged battery will draw 0-5 amps when 14 volts is applied to it <br /><br />The concern shawn has, is whether he operates the engine long enough to charge the deep cycle battery after a long discharge.<br /><br />As with any batteries, it is always a good idea to isolate them from each other when they are not being charged, as their "open circuit voltage" differs from one to the other, and sulphation will occur over time in the one that has the higher potential.<br /> :)
 

go-fishing

Cadet
Joined
Jan 11, 2003
Messages
15
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

If you go to www.westmarine.com <br />click on West Advisor, <br />click on West Advisors, <br />and scroll down to the Electrical area, you can find lots of info about batteries, charging, etc. <br />Particulaly apropos are <br />"Creating a reliable battery system," <br />"Dual-Purpose Batteries, <br />"Some Electrical System Basics," and <br />"Smart Battery Charging," among others. <br />Lots of good info here even if some is more appropriate to large cruising boats with huge electrical systems.
 

almost retired again

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
438
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

Hello Shawn Ferrer;<br />All batteries gas when charging or discharging. I'm one of those old farts, I retired from the Navy in 74 most of my service was on submarines, and at least half of that was spent on diesel/electrics. I have done almost everthing on those lead acid batteries from cleaning, and watering to charging, and I'll have to agree with almost all of what Schematic has said about batteries and most all of his electrical post that I have read. He puts out very good info.<br />Just had to give Schematic some kudos here.
 

carboncow

Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
14
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

thanks for everyone input! interestingly everytime there is a battery question (or the old discussion on car parts in a boat)...it turns into a long thread off of the original question. <br /><br />it always get's more confusing the longer the thread exsists!
 

Beaux

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
390
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

CarbonCow/Shawn-<br />It should not be confusing. Schematic is right and I only profess to know .1% of what he has shown on this board in knowledge from his postings. I think the simple answer is this. <br />you have a make/before/break perko so:<br /> Crank on 1 or both ( I do it on 1 unless my starting battery is low an needs extra help) <br /> Then switch to both if you feel need while running to charge #2 also. Realize that if your deep cell is almost dead it will accept (use) most of your alternators output before it charges your starting battery back up. Also note- If its a severely discharged deep cell, it will take a long time running your motor before your deep cell is recharged.<br /> When sitting on trailer or in storage then put your switch on OFF and trickle charge (automatic unit) your deep cell for longest life. Your setup will work great and will not "hurt" your batteries. The reason I say trickle charge when out of water is b/c most of the time if you really run down your deep cell, you won't run your motor long enough to completely recharge the deep cell. Therefore you would be leaving your $$$ battery at less than full charge which will shorten its life. Good Luck
 

charleswmoore

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
105
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

Wow, What a string. I only reply back because I totally disagree with Schematic indicating a fully discharged battery can only pull 5 to 10 amps. Since this is not the nature of the string I'll go no further than it's basic Ohm's Law using the capacitance reactance as the resitor in the formula. Looks like everyone is in agreement that yes you can charge a moder. discharged<br />deepcycle battery by paralleling the two. The only thing to keep in mind is if it is a 90 amp hour rated battery the charge applied needs to replinish the entire 90 amp hours. Like the previous posting West Marine and I believe Boat U.S right out of thier catalogs explain this very well in a language that is understandable by a <br />normal human being. Take care and happpy boating.<br />Charlie
 

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

Hi charleswmoore<br /><br />Good topic....<br /><br />I stated:<br /> "A discharged battery coupled to a fully charged battery will only result in a small current flow (5-10 amps max.)"<br /><br />Have you ever boosted a vehicle? (engine off!!)Did the spark you see when connecting up appear to be as severe as what you claim "excess of 400 amps"?<br /><br />Remember, the open circuit voltage of a fully charged battery compared to the open circuit voltage of a low battery is typically a difference of .6 volts. <br /><br />Lets do the math....<br /> 14 volts applied to a low battery results in a current flow of 35-45 amps (pending on age, size and state of charge). The difference between the charging system voltage (14v) and battery voltage (12v) is approx. 2 volts.<br /><br />If the difference in voltage was only .6v, the current would be much lower....<br /><br />Hooking 12v batteries in parallel, regardless of size, creates no problem while charging with a "regulated" system. Its when you leave them connected together while not being charged is what causes problems.....<br /><br />almost retired again<br /><br />Thanks for the kind words....Did any of the submarine batteries you worked with use electrolyte pumps to keep the upper and lower quadrants at the same temp? Is it true that stratification can discharge a battery?<br /><br />I heard this theory once, but would like someone to verify it...you sound like the man.... :)
 

charleswmoore

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
105
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

May not belong here but this string sure has the attention of people familiar with bat design so I ask, Does anyone know why Volvo Penta if not once but multi times in the installation manual of thier 5.7 liter 2001 engine package say no to a deep cycle battey when the engine package has Electronic Fuel injection? The note indicates damage to the EFI can result? Is this because of Voltage drop durring cranking or does this apply to something deeper deeling with battery design? Next question is does anyone know if this applies to the dual purpose batteries that claim to be deep cycle cranking? Very Curiuos-Charlie
 

charleswmoore

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
105
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

This may also help explain some of what everyone is saying. If you were not confused you should be now! Check out this page it is in human terms and a wealth of information regarding this topic.<br /><br /> http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm <br /><br />Battery Charging Voltages and Currents:<br />Most flooded batteries should be charged at no more than the "C/8" rate for any sustained period. "C/8" is the battery capacity at the 20-hour rate divided by 8. For a 220 AH battery, this would equal 26 Amps. Gelled cells should be charged at no more than the C/20 rate, or 5% of their amp-hour capacity. The Concorde AGM batteries are a special case - the can be charged at up the the Cx4 rate, or 400% of the capacity for the bulk charge cycle. However, since very few battery cables can take that much current, we don't recommend you try this at home. To avoid cable overheating, you should stick to C/4 or less.<br /><br />Charging at 15.5 volts will give you a 100% charge on Lead-Acid batteries. Once the charging voltage reaches 2.583 volts per cell, charging should stop or be reduced to a trickle charge. Note that flooded batteries MUST bubble (gas) somewhat to insure a full charge, and to mix the electrolyte. Float voltage for Lead-Acid batteries should be about 2.15 to 2.23 volts per cell, or about 12.9-13.4 volts for a 12 volt battery. At higher temperatures (over 85 degrees F) this should be reduced to about 2.10 volts per cell.<br /><br />Never add acid to a battery except to replace spilled liquid. Distilled or deionized water should be used to top off non-sealed batteries. Float and charging voltages for gelled batteries are usually about 2/10th volt less than for flooded to reduce water loss. Note that many shunt-type charge controllers sold for solar systems will NOT give you a full charge - check the specifications first. To get a full charge, you must continue to apply a current after the battery voltage reaches the cutoff point of most of these type of controllers. This is why we recommend the charge controls and battery chargers listed in the sections above. Not all shunt type controllers are 100% on or off, but most are.<br /><br />Flooded battery life can be extended if an equalizing charge is applied every 10 to 40 days. This is a charge that is about 10% higher than normal full charge voltage, and is applied for about 2 to 16 hours. This makes sure that all the cells are equally charged, and the gas bubbles mix the electrolyte. If the liquid in standard wet cells is not mixed, the electrolyte becomes "stratified". You can have very strong solution at the top, and very weak at the bottom of the cell. With stratification, you can test a battery with a hydrometer and get readings that are quite a ways off. If you cannot equalize for some reason, you should let the battery sit for at least 24 hours and then use the hydrometer. AGM and gelled should be equalized 2-4 times a year at most - check the manufacturers recommendations, especially on gelled.<br /><br />Battery Aging<br />As batteries age, their maintenance requirements change. This means longer charging time and/or higher finish rate (higher amperage at the end of the charge). Usually older batteries need to be watered more often. And, their capacity decreases.<br /><br />Mini Factoids<br />Nearly all batteries will not reach full capacity until cycled 10-30 times. A brand new battery will have a capacity of about 5-10% less than the rated capacity.<br /><br />Batteries should be watered after charging unless the plates are exposed, then add just enough water to cover the plates. After a full charge, the water level should be even in all cells and usually 1/4" to 1/2" below the bottom of the fill well in the cell (depends on battery size and type).<br /><br />In situations where multiple batteries are connected in series, parallel or series/parallel, replacement batteries should be the same size, type and manufacturer (if possible). Age and usage level should be the same as the companion batteries. Do not put a new battery in a pack which is more than 3 months old or has more than 75 cycles. Either replace with all new or use a good used battery. For long life batteries, such as the Surrette and Crown, you can have up to a one year age difference.<br /><br />The vent caps on flooded batteries should remain on the battery while charging. This prevents a lot of the water loss and splashing that may occur when they are bubbling.<br /><br />When you first buy a new set of flooded (wet) batteries, you should fully charge and equalize them, and then take a hydrometer reading for future reference. Since not all batteries have exactly the same acid strength, this will give you a baseline for future
 

almost retired again

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
438
Re: so how do i charge my deep cycle battery?

Schematic,<br />In responce to your question about submarine batteries. No we didn't have electrolyte pumps to prevent stratification of the electrolyte. If we were operating at sea the batteries were charged ever day.We had an equlizer charge charge approx. once a month. I guess they figured that the gassing during charging and discharging kept it mixed pretty good.<br />Submarine batteries were lead/acid just like the ones in most boats and autos. Each cell developed approx. the same voltage as the ones in boats. Where the differance was; was in the size. Each cell weighed approx 1 ton, there was 126 cells per battery, and 2 batteries per boat. These batteries were well maintained as they had to last for years. A battery change,or a cell change required a shipyard period as this required that a hole be cut in the pressure hull, and much of the living quarters for either the officers or crew was disrupted.<br />I read the above post,and there are a couple of things that I disagree with. Water should be added before a charge, and I don't think that pure acid should be added to a battery at anytime.<br />In responce to the question on stratification causing a discharge, I don't know but I have a book put out by the battery council of America so I'll see what they have to say about it.<br />It's been fun. Have a good day.
 
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