Separation of church and state?

QC

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Re: Separation of church and state?

I also defend his right to be an idiot, but I am not sure what the point is. That he shouldn't say that? Yes, he shouldn't say that.
 

Kalian

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Re: Separation of church and state?

texaswinner.<br />I don't want to run in Robertson because I don't want to jump on the liberal media bandwagon and destroy someone I know nothing about. <br /> I don't know the exact bible quote he quoted, nor do I know the context or details of the scripture. I don't know whether the land in question is the land refered to in the bible. I don't know anywhere near enough on the subject to comment on it, so I'm staying out. But I will say this, if the bible supports what he said, then more power to him. If he's just a bible quoting money collecting typical TV preacher I hope he fries.<br /><br />Edit: I think the timing of his remark may have been wrong, thats all I'll give you for now though.
 

txswinner

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Re: Separation of church and state?

QC, I like that makes me glad not to be Pat Robertson. The true minded and those open to understanding feel that way on many things. It is those who stand behind anyone on every matter whether they agree or not. Not thinking no democracy.
 

Kalian

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Re: Separation of church and state?

Edit: Ooops, I'll have to strike that, I thought it was posted by Jtexas. I'm so confused!
 
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DJ

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Re: Separation of church and state?

TXS,<br /><br />
QC, I like that makes me glad not to be Pat Robertson. The true minded and those open to understanding feel that way on many things. It is those who stand behind anyone on every matter whether they agree or not. Not thinking no democracy.
You ASSUME I do and did. You're wrong and have been proven so, in another thread.<br /><br />Never A$$-U-ME, you know the drill.
 

bootle

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Re: Separation of church and state?

A feller once said something, i'm not sure of the exact words "Render onto the lord what belongs to the lord, render onto ceasar what is ceasars.<br />Next thing you know the folks had him nailed to a tree or something.<br />The church seems to want to have it both ways, they ought start rendering to ceasar "IRS" what is ceasars, thats my 2 cents.
 
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DJ

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Re: Separation of church and state?

Hey Darth,<br /><br />So should every other so called "charity" such as Planned Parenthood.<br /><br />We do Render to Ceasar, by way of INCOME TAXES. MY Tithe is on the Net (take home) based on Gross (befor taxes). In other words my tithe is based on my gross but in net NET dollars.<br /><br />Got a problem with that? The gov. got theirs and then some.
 

bootle

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Re: Separation of church and state?

DJ, we finally can agree totally on something :)
 

jtexas

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Re: Separation of church and state?

Originally posted by DJ:<br /> The whole notion of "Seperation of Church and State" is NOT in the Constitution. Don't believe it, LOOK IT UP!<br />
The words "Separation of Church" and State aren't there, but the "notion" is. Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it now. That terminology wasn't coined by the media, or fabricated out of whole cloth by any Republican or Democrat; it came out of a debate by the serious thinkers who framed the constitution and others from early in our country's history. Names like Jefferson and Madison and George Washington. There is a large body of work supporting both sides, one side being "the government can't make laws regarding any religious establishment," the other side being "the government can't establish a religion, but laws about religion are okay." All of it is opinion. Both viewpoints are valid. If you want to belittle those who disagree with you on this point, go ahead, it's a free country.<br /><br />When a court (including the U.S. supreme court) is given the task of interpreting a law they often look to the writings of the drafters as evidence of its meaning. One may agree or disagree with that methodology but we inherited it from England. That is why Jefferson's and Madison's and Washington's letters are relevant.<br /><br />Can you tell what treedancer thinks from the way he asked his question? <br />"Do you think that the church should be trying to dictate to the people of there flock how they should vote?" Who on God's green earth would say yes to that? Fidel Castro or Sadam Hussein maybe.<br /><br />How about this: "Do you think a pastor has a right to express his political opinion to his congregation?" Yeeeeeah-no-maybe-I-don't-know.<br /><br />How about this: "Does a televangelist have the right to make political statements about an election during a religious broadcast?" No!
 

bootle

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Re: Separation of church and state?

"Can you tell what treedancer thinks from the way he asked his question? <br />"Do you think that the church should be trying to dictate to the people of there flock how they should vote?" Who on God's green earth would say yes to that? Fidel Castro or Sadam Hussein maybe"<br /><br />I don't believe that those two fellers ever needed a church's help to do their dictating ;)
 
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DJ

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Re: Separation of church and state?

jtexas,<br /><br />Check your facts.<br /><br />It came out of a letter from Thomas Jefferson "suggesting" the idea. It was voted down. It is not, nor shall it be "thought to" be in the Constitution. <br /><br />To answer your questions.<br /><br />
There is a large body of work supporting both sides, one side being "the government can't make laws regarding any religious establishment," the other side being "the government can't establish a religion, but laws about religion are okay." All of it is opinion. Both viewpoints are valid. If you want to belittle those who disagree with you on this point, go ahead, it's a free country.<br />
The government is now actively creating law against particular religions via court decree.<br /><br />
That is why Jefferson's and Madison's and Washington's letters relevant.<br />
They are NOT relevant, IMHO. They DID NOT make to the final document. That is for a reason.<br /><br />
Can you tell what treedancer thinks from the way he asked his question? <br />"Do you think that the church should be trying to dictate to the people of there flock how they should vote?" Who on God's green earth would say yes to that? Fidel Castro or Sadam Hussein maybe.<br />
As it is today, only conservative leaning churches are held to that principle of not "leading" the congregation. Liberal churches have free reign. See the Hillary thread.
 

rolmops

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Re: Separation of church and state?

If we look back in history,say about 25 years,we see an interesting thing happening in the USA.The Religious Right or Moral Majority or whatever catchy name they gave themselves started with a well orchestrated grassroots program to take over the republican party.It started in small towns where the activists started flooding the town meetings and dragging them out until most others left.Then they would vote on ordinances and the like.Next, when elections came,leaflets were distributed in the church parking lots,telling the church attending people which candidate was God fearing and which ones they should not vote for.Note here that it was not the clergy telling anybody what to do,just in case that this would endanger the tax free status of the churches.Through this sort of activism more and more religious activists were voted into local councils and slowly they penetrated so far into the power structure of the republican party that many secular republicans were pushed into the background or left the party.Today it has come to the point that the religious right with its well organized electorate is almost running the republican party and wo unto the politician who does not pander to their wishes.He may be blacklisted as not enough God fearing and may very well loose his chance at re-election.<br />In my opinion there is official seperation,but in reality we see the republican party more and more dominated by conservative christian groups who are constantly trying to insert more and more church influence into the government.<br />If you think that this is hogwash,then please explain to me why at election time every politician is going to church accompanied by lots of cameras,or why Bush, at the beginning of his first term, came up with a plan to let religious groups participate in administering social service moneys.
 

txswinner

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Re: Separation of church and state?

DJ, What is a "Liberal" church, I have heard my church referred to as such, does that make me evil, what "church" do you belong to.
 

QC

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Re: Separation of church and state?

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> If you think that this is hogwash,then please explain to me why at election time every politician is going to church accompanied by lots of cameras,or why Bush, at the beginning of his first term, came up with a plan to let religious groups participate in administering social service moneys.
Non-sequitur. Does not prove any of your previous points. Proof would be some sort of document describing the evil plan to infiltrate all levels of Gov't.<br /><br />Anyway, you are correct though. Clinton was a bible thumper when he thought it counted. Kerry was a man of faith too :rolleyes: <br /><br />BTW, what type of catchy phrase do you reserve for your political leanings?
 

rolmops

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Re: Separation of church and state?

Quote,originally posted by QC:<br />BTW, what type of catchy phrase do you reserve for your political leanings? [/QB][/quote]<br /><br />"non aligned libertarian analyst"
 

QC

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Re: Separation of church and state?

I used to use "radical middle of the roader" but the road moved a little . . .
 

jtexas

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Re: Separation of church and state?

Originally posted by DJ:<br /> The government is now actively creating law against particular religions via court decree.<br />
Well that is clearly wrong. I'd like to find out about that - which decrees in particular?
 

txswinner

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Re: Separation of church and state?

Why ask DJ you will not get a straight answer.<br /><br />Perhaps I can help in his place. It is because the liberals get all the good press and I go to the responsible conservative church that obeys the law and does not have controversy, but you unbelievers are out there picking on the good folks. and on and ona
 

CJY

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Re: Separation of church and state?

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. I am protected by the Establishment clause of the 1st amendment. It protects me from having the government favor one religion over another. As long as we are human, we will favor one belief over another. Just read above for verification of that. Therefore, leave it out of the government. In essence, separating the two.<br /><br />What I find interesting is many conservatives say god bless out one side of their mouth, while saying go shoot em up out the other side. In my mind, this appears to be a bit of a moral conflict with those two lines of thought. We are not using religion to hide behind, are we? Go shoot em up, and then we will pray for forgiveness...hmmmm. WWJD???
 
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