Rim/wheel Question

[INJUN]

The rim's hub hole is a little larger than the axel hub. Not much, but enough to know it is the wrong size. All of the stud bolts line up prefectly and the nuts are on as tight as they should be, so they (5) hold all the weight on this single axel trailer, no brakes. The entire rig weighs 3000lbs. The hub/stubs are new.
I trailer about 10 miles to the ramp on paved roads with speed limits around 35mph.
It's not prefect, but is it safe?

Thanks.

 

[AZMinyard]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

The hub should not support any weight, so the hole being larger is not a problem. Your lug nuts should taper on the end and correctly distribute the weight of your trailer to the lugs.

In my opinion, this is correct and safe. Let?s see what others have to say . . .

 

[INJUN]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

That's what I want to hear. I'll check back tommorow for hopefully more of the same.
Thanks.

 

[Shizzy]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

as long as the wheels and the lug nuts are tapered then its fine. More then liley the wheel centers itself off the lug nuts

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Ummmm -- NO! If you worked more than 10 minutes in a tire shop you will have had at least one instance where a wheel is stuck to a hub due to corrosion between the hub and the wheel. Hubs are designed with a ridge onto which the wheel center locates. If that were not the case, hubs would not be manufactured with that extra bit of machining required. Yes, the hub, the lug nuts and studs all carry load. Are you safe with an oversize center hole? Probably. Is it correct? No!

 

[109jb]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Ummm -- YES!

Silvertip, You are generally correct when talking about car or truck wheels, but I'm sorry to say not when talking trailer wheels. I have 7 trailers (3 tandem 12,000 lb, 10,000 lb, camper, and 4 single axle, 3 boat, 1 utility) which have a total of 20 wheels and none of them center on the center hole. I can guarantee that 16 of those 20 wheels are the original wheels that came from the factory because I bought them new. Also, many aftermarket auto wheels only center using the lug nuts.

Injun, you are fine. Run it like it is.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Ummmm -- NO! If you worked more than 10 minutes in a tire shop you will have had at least one instance where a wheel is stuck to a hub due to corrosion between the hub and the wheel. Hubs are designed with a ridge onto which the wheel center locates. If that were not the case, hubs would not be manufactured with that extra bit of machining required. Yes, the hub, the lug nuts and studs all carry load. Are you safe with an oversize center hole? Probably. Is it correct? No!

I have worked more that 10 minutes in a tire shop.
13 years as an automotive mechanic - 6 years of which were in tires shops, NIASE certified for over 10 years, State Inspector for 6 years. Outside of tire shops, guess what, you still gotta deal with tires...and rims.
You are wrong.
There is no reason his application poses any safety issues.
Many, many many if not most automotive applications contradict your observation.

 

[Shizzy]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

I too have worked more then 10 minutes in a tire shop. The OEM wheels on my Oldsmobile in no way use the hub for centering. the aftermarket wheels I had for it centered off washers on the wheels (bad design BTW)

you have two types of setups. Lug-centric and Hub-centric. Give me a steel wheel and acorn lug nuts anyday.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

I did say it was probably safe. I also said it was not correct and I stand by that. Because a trailer is supplied with wheels that are located by the studs does not make it inherently unsafe, nor does it make it correct. People use car wheels on trailers too -- that does not make it correct.

Perhaps this excerpt regarding aftermarket wheels helps clarify my position! I'm merely pointing out that trailer wheels are made the way they are because its a one-size fits all design unlike automotive wheels. Again -- because they get away with it does not make it correct.

Since wheel manufacturers make their center bore large enough to fit most cars, most wheel fitments have a gap between the hub and the center bore. This gap usually doesn't allow for the wheel to fit hubcentric but rather "lugcentric" which causes vibration. Therefore, to fill the gap and ensure the fitment is hubcentric, hub rings are used.
Vibration can come from the studs being load bearing instead of the hub being load bearing.

I rest my case.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Sorry, but you're still wrong, regardless of you opinion.
The CAPS stood out, you're position was clear to me.
The setup is correct and safe.

Because someone uses a car rim on a trailer does not automatically make it incorrect. Auto manufacturers do make one size fits all and have been for decades, I think Henry Ford developed the concept as far as the automotive industry goes. It's not a matter of them getting away with anything. It's basic manufacturing.
e.g. a 14" Chevy rim will fit many models of many years of many GM brands.
e.g. My 16" Dodge rims with a 5x5.5 bolt pattern also fit Jeep and Ford.
Interchangeable parts have been around manufacturing in general for over a couple hundred years now.

Vibration comes from the wheels, not the studs. Studs are pressed into the axle which is machined. Machining is more precise than stamping. The studs are concentric to the axle.
(Steel) Wheels are stamped out - not machined - again, basic manufacuring.
As such wheels they are less than perfect.
They are not manufactured to the same tolerances as axles which again have holes machined to accept the studs.
Vibration comes from the poor manufacturing tolerances of rims (and tires).
If all this goes well and the wheels balance out and the wheel is properly installed, a hub ring is unnecessary.

 

[109jb]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

I did say it was probably safe. I also said it was not correct and I stand by that. Because a trailer is supplied with wheels that are located by the studs does not make it inherently unsafe, nor does it make it correct. People use car wheels on trailers too -- that does not make it correct.

Perhaps this excerpt regarding aftermarket wheels helps clarify my position! I'm merely pointing out that trailer wheels are made the way they are because its a one-size fits all design unlike automotive wheels. Again -- because they get away with it does not make it correct.

Since wheel manufacturers make their center bore large enough to fit most cars, most wheel fitments have a gap between the hub and the center bore. This gap usually doesn't allow for the wheel to fit hubcentric but rather "lugcentric" which causes vibration. Therefore, to fill the gap and ensure the fitment is hubcentric, hub rings are used.
Vibration can come from the studs being load bearing instead of the hub being load bearing.

I rest my case.

Hub centric is NOT correct when it comes to trailer wheels. I'm not arguing whether hub centered are better or not. Actually, I agree that they are. The simple fact that you will be hard pressed to even find a trailer hub machined for hub-centric mounting is all that matters. The way you posted originally could have led Injun to believe that he needed to look for hub centered trailer wheels. That's they way I read it anyway.

As for cars, I mentioned aftermarket as an example. I said generally you are correct but generally doesn't mean always. I would say that most cars manufactured in the last 20 years come with hub centered wheels and should use hub centered wheels, but that wasn't always true. I have owned several classic cars from the 60's and 70's that came with lug centered wheels and that's all you can use on them. As a matter of fact I currently have a 1970 Mustang with factory original styled steel wheels that are lug centered. As for the vibration when using a lug centered wheel, that is most likely because most tire shops don't have the proper equipment to balance lug centric wheels, or they don't train their workers to use the lug centric balancing tools. Most tire shops use the cones for balancing and this is the setup for hub centerd wheels.

All this car talk though is useless in the context of the original question about trailer wheels. The vast majority of trailer wheels are lug centered and that is the way they are intended to be. That is the fundamental answer to the original question.

 

[INJUN]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Thanks for all of the responses! I take it to be safe to use.
Thanks again.

 

[The_Kid]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

The quickest way to tell if a wheel is hub or lug centric is the shape of the lug nut. The 2 on the left are lug centric. the right one is hub centric.

 

[109jb]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

The quickest way to tell if a wheel is hub or lug centric is the shape of the lug nut. The 2 on the left are lug centric. the right one is hub centric.

Lug nuts will not tell you if it is lug or hub centered. Hub centered wheels can have lug nuts like the left two in your picture and lug centered can have nuts like the right one as well. Two examples: My 1994 Acura with factory hub centered steel wheels has lug nuts like the 2nd from the left in your picture. I just happen to have rotated the wheels on that one two weekends ago. Also, when I was younger I had a muscle car with a set of "universal" wheels. These wheels had 5 lugs and the lug holes in the wheel were slots so that it would mate up with different bolt circle diameters. The lug nuts and washers were special ones and they looked like the right one in your picture but the wheel was lug centered.

The only way to tell if the wheel/hub combo is hub centered is if the center hole of the wheel mates up with a snug fit on the hub. In other words, can you put the wheel on the hub and have it perfectly centered without any lug nuts installed? If not then it is lug centered whether intended to be or not. To tell if it could be hub centered you have to look for a machined diameter which will only be about 1/4" to 3/8" tall right above the flange of the hub. This could be a protrusion that is only 1/4 to 3/8 tall (left drawing), or it could be another diameter turned into the hub at that point (center drawing). In order to make it hub centric you would need to measure this diameter and get wheels with this center hole diameter, or use hub rings on a wheel with a larger center hole. A typical small trailer hub only has one diameter from the grease cap to the flange (right drawing), or has a cast hub protrusion that is left in the cast state and not machined. These were not intended to be hub centering, but I guess you could use them that way if you wanted to with modification.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Since wheel manufacturers make their center bore large enough to fit most cars, most wheel fitments have a gap between the hub and the center bore. This gap usually doesn't allow for the wheel to fit hubcentric but rather "lugcentric" which causes vibration. Therefore, to fill the gap and ensure the fitment is hubcentric, hub rings are used.
Vibration can come from the studs being load bearing instead of the hub being load bearing.

I have used after market wheels on a number of cars. They came with hub rings. All the hub rings were soft vinyl like plastic, and just compress to match whatever load is put on them. The wheels center on the lugs even when hub rings are used. After the tires are removed two or three times for balancing, the hub rings are shot and discarded. I never had vibration issues when the hub rings are not used. To think that a small plastic ring is going to add stability and make the rim hub centric is a very incorrect assumption. The hub rings are there to make it easier to mount the rim.

Furthermore, the hub centric wheels only support the vertical weight of the tire, and do nothing for side torsion or rim flexing while making turns. So the at least 50% of a tires loads are not supported by the hub.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Irregardless of all above, take a look at any trailer hub, they are either rough cast or stamped steel. I have none here that have any sort of machining to except any sort of hub centric rim.
Trailer wheels center themselves with tapered lugs, hub body diameters vary by brand, type and often from other identical part number hubs. I have four new in the box hubs here, all from a major US maker, each one has a rough cast finish with no machined area to accept the rim.
Most trailer rims have an oversized center hole to make them universal fit. That way one rim can fit various trailer applications. For instance, a 5 lug hub will fit rims from 12" up. If you try to mount some car wheel on many trailer hubs, you'll find that the rim's center hole is too small to fit, especially on the heavier duty hubs.

I'd have to check but I'm pretty certain that the standard center hole size for most 5 on 4.5" lug trailer wheels is 3 1/8". (4 hole usually measures 4 5/8", 5 on 5" normally will be 3 1/4", and a 6 lug center hole is usually 4 1/4").

As far as trailers using special wheels, if you go back about 25 or so years, many trailers came with plain but often galvanized car wheels. My 1982 Load Rite trailer came with regular 5 on 4.5" lug galvanized rims, no spokes, no holes for appearance, just plain old rims that would even accept a Ford center cap. Here's a page from 1983 or 84s catalog brochure.
http://i38.tinypic.com/i57uk9.jpg

One of the only auto/truck wheels that come to mind that ware hub centric are the later Ford trucks, a trend that started in 1997 with the introduction of the F150, they used an O ring to center the wheel tightly on the hub, they later put out a bulletin saying to discard the O ring and leave a loose fit. The 1/16" or so of addition play or off center made no difference in ride or vibration. The lugs on those trucks are flat with attached serrated washers.

Unilug or non taper seat aftermarket rims are still lug centered, they use a shouldered lug vs. a tapered seat lug to center the rim on the stud, some early aftermarket wheels used keyed or shouldered washers as well.
These probably aren't the best choice as a trailer wheel for both strength and corrosion issues. I never run aluminum wheels on my trailers since aluminum in contact with steel only makes for a corrosion problem in saltwater.

As far as the original question here, as stated several times above, there is nothing wrong with the rim's center being larger than the hub, it's the case on most all trailers.

 

[INJUN]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Okay, okay, okay. I am now 100% sure it is safe. Okay?





Unless, using an automobile rim makes a difference. I didn't mention that initially.:redface:

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Never seen or heard of a rim that centers on the hub.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

Never seen or heard of a rim that centers on the hub.

1997/1998 - Ford F150, rims have no tapered seat and the hubs center the rim via a rubber o ring. Ford had several recalls which eventually led to new lug nuts and the elimination of the o ring. The original purpose of the O ring was to isolate the steel hub from the rim to prevent dissimilar metal bonding or corrosion. The first recall said to increase wheel torque to 100 ft-lbs. But that led to several complaints of wheels loosening. The result was the new lugs and discontinuing of the hub O rings. If you look at the newer lugs, there's not much visible difference and the rims didn't change. I suppose they just make harder, better locking lugs. The first cure also led to various vibration complaints due to wheels not being centered.

Pickup trucks with dual wheels, especially those made throughout the 1970's to the mid 1990's used flat, offset rims which used the hub to center the wheel, some also used a dowel pin between the lugs to locate the valve stem on dual rear wheel applications.

There are probably several more but these are two that I see most often.

 

[ne7800]

Re: Rim/wheel Question

e.g. My 16" Dodge rims with a 5x5.5 bolt pattern also fit Jeep and Ford.

i always herd that you can put a dodge rim on a ford but you cant put a ford rim on a dodge cuz the hub is bigger on the dodge
also my dad has a 1946 jeep willys cj2a and it has rims on it from a mid 80's f-150