Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
I have a 91'FourWinns Freedom190, 4.3L OMC Cobra I/O. Purchased earlier 2006, since I have an "investment" in it already, I'd like to fix her up... was already recommended that I "buy a better 1st boat", but I'm stuck w/ this one. Might as well put a little more into her and get a few years out of her. Moving on....

I have already pulled out the floor, foam, and fuel tank; down to the stringers. I would like to pull the engine/outdrive (to replace all stringers), and do some maintainance on the engine, etc...

I'm a 1st timer, so can someone tell me the BEST/Recommended steps for removing the engine, replacing the stringers, and replacing the floor?
2. Should I use Fiberglass Mat, or Cloth (Airline grade), to put in the stringers?
3. What foam should I use to replace what was pulled out, AND where can I get it??
4. What would it cost to have the exterior repainted? (is 21', white w/ blue stripe down side...) if that helps. OR, should I do it myself w/ the "Roll and tip" method?

I'm pretty much up for any job, have auto-mechanic background, but now boat repair/fiberglass experience.

Thank you very much, in advance!!
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

One more thing... I did purchase a Repair Manual for this model... waiting on it to arrive. I want this done RIGHT, and hopefully it will last for a long time to come.
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

and.. one more thing.... I noticed in the "storage compartment (mid-upper-center) that the hull looks 'thin' can see daylight through the hull at the very center of the bottom (of the "V"); any recommendations on repairing this? Do I just sand and overcoat w/ a couple of layers of glass and resin?

Thanks again!
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,994
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

That's Alot of Question for just 1 thread,..........

If you wander thru the 115 Pages of archives here at iboats in the Restoration forum,......

You'll Find a couple of Answers for Each of your Questions............

But,..... For a Quick Overview,.......
Pull the Drive,.....
Pull the Engine,.....
Pull the Transom Assembley,+ Everything Else in the Hull,.......
Fix all the Issues,.......
Reassemble in the reverse order.........

Btw,..... If you're an Auto Mechanic,..... You Must Know some Auto Body Men........
Trade a Favor,+ Have 1 of them teach You how to Prep,+ Spray Paint it.......
2pt. Ureathanes are Hard to Beat.......
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

I was hoping to get more specifics so I wouldn't have to go through 115 pages of 'similar' fixes and piece them together... and then hope I picked the right one for my specific applications.
 

Tail_Gunner

Admiral
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Let's simplify this, post some pic's of the entire setup and let it progress, this could very well be much simplier than you think.
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Here's some pics...

floor1.jpg


floor2.jpg


exterior.jpg
 

sbklf

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
190
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Are you sure all the stringers are bad to need replacement? (sounds serious)

Foam creates problems. It will save your boat from sinking but It can trap and hold some water, if any enters, and rot stringers, soles etc. If installed you need to at least leave channels for moisture to escape to drains of some sort. Two part pour foam is what is usually used. Go to www.jgreer.com for this. It comes in different densities for different applications. If only for flotation I think the 2lb is OK.

From what I read, polyester resin will pass moisture over time. I would use epoxy for everything between the sole and the hull. If applied properly, its waterproofing characteristics make wood rot a thing of the past. I researched online a bunch of different epoxy and printed user guides and learned a lot about all aspects of the application techniques and tips. There are many, System Three, MAS, West System, RAKA, jgreer also sells it. I chose RAKA. Larry, the owner, will help you with material selection, fillers, cloths etc.

Expensive, dont know what your budget is but you might consider a composite sole. That would be one less thing to worry about rotting.

As for the daylight thru the hull, resins are clear and gelcoat will pass light. It may look thin but it is possibly not a problem. You can certainly beef it up from inside like you say if you think it is a problem.

I would try polishing the Gelcoat. I have never painted one but it sounds like a lot of work.
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Yes, the stringers are shot. some parts are just falling apart, which gets me 'worried' about transom rot, as I have read and been advised on here, is a potential problem as well. Money, of course, is an issue... but, the wise investment would be to spend more now to do it right instead of spending a lot more to do it again later! I have enough room there to do it right now.
I already purchsed some Polyester boaters resin. I haven't received an answer yet to the question: Is it better to use fiberglass mat 1.5oz, or airline-grade cloth to put the stringers in? And, what do you use to "smooth" out the area where the new stringer will sit to prep it? I have been using an air-grinder to remove everything (more control of cutting depth than recip.saw). Thanks for all your feedback!
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

I wanted to add: I have 5 Gal. of Polyester Resin, which may be more than I need, as I was reading other posts. Question is: Would there be any benefit to applying "Extra" coats of resin? Now that I think about it, I think I read somewhere that applying too many coats will cause the 'lower' coats to heat up too much and possibly crack. Is this correct? What is the "best" (in your experiences) method of applying resin,mat,resin, etc...?? I also read: to coat pieces with an initial layer of resin to let it "Soak in", wait 12-24 hours, then apply another layer of resin, then the fiberglass mat, then another layer of resin; does that sound right?
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

and I forgot to ask... when coating the back (underside) of the floor, do you use resin only, or resin, fiber, resin (same as top)??
 

strizzy

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
159
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Heres a long email I wrote up for another user, it should have a lot of information in it. In realitly poly is going to be fine for your project (ask users who have used it and not just read about epoxy), and five gallons will be close, maybe a gallon short.

Motor is pretty straight forward as pulling it out, yank the drive off it, then disconect everything and take your lags out of the mounts and the bolts off the transom plate.

For your ski locker, I would just add a couple layers of mat to the inside. Check the outside for damage.

For your gel, try some 3M Super Duty and a buffer.

Four Winns (older boats for sure, new ones are less and less) are really nice boats, in fact I would like to pick an older 241 Liberator up myself....

Email (refers to my boat project in sig):
Materials I used:

-2 sheets exterior grade 3/4" plywood

-2 sheets exterior grade 1/2" plywood

-boat load of SS screws.

-almost 2 gals of acetone

-2lb foam, 2.5 gals if I remember right...

-1 quart 3M high strength filler/bonder
For my motor mounts and rear swim deck.

-5 gals of poly resin
Coated all my wood with one real nice coat before installing. Then one during installing.

-8" wide fiberglass cloth tape (8.7oz)
Used close to 30' in my boat, all edges and seams on floor.

-1.5 oz mat (probably used a good 5 yards)
Used for first layer to install stringers

-2.0 oz mat (just under 20 yards for floor)
Used to cover floor after installing. I also laid stripes down on top of my stringers (they were not wide like yours) before installing my floor.

-18 oz roven cloth(same amount as 1.5oz)
Used to install second layer for stringers.

I also used some 40oz for my motor mounts, which was total over kill, but I work at a marine shop and I was able to anything I wanted... As far as the construction of my mounts, they are made up of 1/2 ply, 2x4, 2x6, and a piece ripped to even out the 2x4 to the 2x6, we will just say a piece that was 2x2. I will use this picture as reference: <http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~crtufano/_0888.jpg> The 2x4 was cut for the total length making a stringer and fitted into the transom. On top of the 2x4 I placed the "2x2". Next was the piece of 1/2 ply cut to my length x 6", this was placed next to the 2x4 and 2x2 combination. Next the 2x6 was placed, sandwiching the plywood. Then to make the top of my mount I used more 1/2 plywood. This is how the originals were made, I simply copied the design. My father cut some wedges that fit the angle of the haul so that the whole bottom surface of the mounts was in contact with the haul, something the factory didn't do, and what happens when the old man gets bored and I stay at work late... I placed the mounts in with the 3M bonder, you could just thicken some resin/epoxy and achieve the same effect, but once again the old man got his hands on this part of the project and he paid the $60 for the quart! I wrapped the mounts in some glass before installing them. When installing them I used the 40oz cloth on the top and bilge sides. When it became time to install my motor, I position my motor, marked the holes, drilled them out, installed the lags, uninstalled the lags, filled each hole with resin and then reinstalled everything for the final time.

With your stringers take lots of time to measure everything, have it all fit really nice and it will make is SO much easier to install. Use the 1.5oz cloth to first glass the stringers in, then follow it up with the 18oz roven cloth. On my boat I attached some ripped pressure treated 2x to the sides of my stringers so that my screws would not "split" the 3/4" plywood stringers. I also installed my foam (2lb) before laying the floor down so that I could fill all the voids and know I wasn't putting too much in.

Be sure to get a fiberglass roller, use a chip brush (cant have enough of those...) just to "paint" the surface that you are going to glass, lay your glass and then "plop" the resin on to the cloth with the brush. Use the roller to saturate the glass and work it smooth. You will see the glass go from white to "clear" when its saturated and laid down.

The key to fiberglassing is not really if you use epoxy or resin, just your prep work. My project took 8 weeks, and I only glassed the last week. Grind EVERYTHING so that its nice and clean and you have something nice to work with. I pretty much grinded the WHOLE haul of my boat. This is VERY messy and you will want to do it outside, or your garage will be white. Make sure you have a GOOD mask and some specs on. A tyvek suit, or talc powder (like at the barbers) will do wonders at saving your skin from scratching. Remember COLD SHOWERS! Clean everything with acetone. Make sure your haul is supported in such a way so that it doesn't become "un-true" or not straight.

I hope I got pretty much everything, I apologize for my english, I really missed out on that department in school, but hey I made up for it in math! If you have anymore questions feel free to ask, its almost like working on stuff for me and I go crazy at school not working on anything...

Good luck!
-Cory


ps; I would suggest using the "edit" (right hand side, drop down menu) feature instead of making multiple replys.
 

sbklf

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
190
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

If you are talking about how to attach the stringers to the hull, fillers are available to glue it in then mat and cloth is used to attach.

The resin soaking in to the wood is the key. I used epoxy so I am not sure but I think there is a way to mix and apply poly to give it a longer pot life which lets it soak into the wood more. With epoxy you can use a slow hardner, apply it when the temperature is falling with great penetrating/sealing results.

Poly, vinylester and epoxy all create heat when they cure. With epoxy (I think it is true for poly as well) cure times are quicker in higher temperatures.The important factor is the mass of the batch. If you spread 6 oz of mixed resin out in a paint roller tray, the heat will dissipate and it will take longer to cure as opposed to a cup full that will heat up in 15 minutes to too hot to touch and be hard soon after.

The strength is in the fiberglass mat, cloth or whatever you use not the resin. The strongest combination is just enough resin to thouroughly wet the cloth. You can lay several layers of glass at a time if you can get it down quick enough before the resin gells. Again if it is too thick it will produce heat and gell faster.

You do want to pre-coat the wood first with conditions that will let it soak in good. This will prevent the wood from drawing resin from the cloth and vice versa.

It looks like from all I have read that a layer mat is necessary when using poly for mechanical bonding reasons. Then woven or fiberglass cloth over this. More layers of cloth can be laid without mat if you do it before the poly cures, and achieve a chemical bond. You can get stitched mat also that has a layer of mat stitched to the cloth. This saves a step.

I would coat the wood with resin, give it time to soak in and apply a layer of mat while a chemical bond can still be achieved (I do not know how long this is for poly) If you wait to long you are back to sanding to give the surface tooth for mechanical bonding.

You always use a layer of mat and or cloth on the top for protection of the wood from abrasion but I am not sure on the bottom side. (I would to be safe)

You can put as many laminations on as you want just not all at one time.Try rolling the resin on with a 3" short nap roller, lay the mat and roll over it again. I find this works well for applying.
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

THANKS GUYS! I think this gives me a good understanding of what to do. Sounds like the HARD WORK is removing and cleaning, all the prep. Which is hopefully almost at an end. I'm pulling the engine today, and will be able to look at the transom really well. Any tips on the best method of determining whether or not the transom is in need of replacement? If so, what are your thoughts on this: Seacast™
the Pourable Transom & Stringer Repair Solution?? http://transomrepair.com/zk/
And, if the transom needs repair, I'm guessing that the top of the boat has to be removed???

Do you recommend getting the 3M bonder, or just using resin and 1.5 mat to set the stringers?

Thanks again!
 

strizzy

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
159
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Well you just really have to check out the condintion of the wood, a simple push on the outdrive will tell you if its bad, other wise look at the wood where the transom plate is. Also check were anything is mounted to the transom, like your drain plug and etc. It wouldnt hurt to drill a couple holes here or there to check out the wood. I am a fan of using wood myself, its cheap and easy. You dont need to take the whole deck off, just "peel" it open enough in the back to slide the wood in.

Check out the transom first to see its condition...
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

WELL... as you would know, Transom is rotted as well. Here's Pics... What would you recommend for this job (replacing transom)?? What all needs to be cut out? and what do you use to replace it? Thanks!

Transom1a.jpg


Transom2.jpg
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,994
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

N.B.75,.......

Could you edit your post with the pictures in it so that we Don't have to side scroll to read this thread,..??..??....

Use the drop down menu in the interact box.....
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Thanks, didn't know you could edit ones that were already submitted... :/
 

newboater75

Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
24
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

RE: Strizzy's reply; what do you mean: "just "peel" it open enough in the back to slide the wood in."? Remember you're talking to a boating 'idiot'... you mean, seperate the top of the boat from the hull in the back? if so, with the front/front-sides attached, is that going to allow the back to raise up enough to slide the wood in? It almost looks like the Transom can be "slid" in from the inside, up-under the top. To remove the transom... do I cut the inside cover (with a disc-grinder, for example) up the sides, across the bottom and top, and then pull the wood out?? What will work best in this scenario? I can post more pics if needed (of the top of the transom under the boat-top). Should I replace the transom 1st, or the stringers? I would think the transom, as the stringers are attached to it.

Thanks!
 

strizzy

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
159
Re: Replacing floor,stringers, foam...

Well there isn’t really one way that’s better then another. If you were to remove your stringers and transom (make sure boat is supported so you stay true and straight on the bottom) and then install the transom first, you may be able to leave the top deck on. The transoms that I have experience in oddly, were Four Winns as well, though older (aside question, do you have the screw on swim platform?). In those cases it was easiest to "peel" the top deck off in the back. Meaning take the rub rail off, and unscrew 3/4 of the boat so that a couple 4x4's were placed between the deck and hull. This made a gap in the back so that the new wood could slide into place from the top, and to place some clamps and what not. In theses cases the stringers were good so this was the easiest way.

You do want the stringers and transom to be tied together, most cases the transom has pockets in it that the stringers fit into. I think this is a judgment call on your case as to which order to do it in, anyone feel free to state your opinion…

As far as removing the transom (and stringers), an angle grinder will do wonders on the glass. Cut around the edges, and any where else that will make it easy to take it out. A circular saw, set sallow (BE CONSERVATIVE!!!) used to cut the transom up into small sections will make it easier to pry and chisel the wood out. When getting ready for new wood (exterior grade soaked in resin will do fine), measure carefully and cut big (I always like to use a sharpie and cut to the outside of the line, sense its easier to trim it down then to make it bigger!). It won’t hurt to bevel/chamfer the inside edges so that the wood wants to set flush with the glass transom. Make sure to clean the glass up real nice (The angle grinder + 60 or 80 grit flap discs will do nicely), wipping everything down with some solvent. It’s not a bad idea to cover the outside of the transom (gel part) with some nice paste wax, so that if, or when that resin gets on it, easy clean up! You are going to have to clamp/screw/put lots of pressure on the transom as it cures. Lots of clamps, using any and all holes on the transom with some screws or bolts, along with any other method of clamping that new piece in (2x4’s on each side through bolted to each other, etc. ).
 
Top