Re-power options 25' 1996 Brunswick Spectrum Cruise DLX pontoon

[surfsalterpath]

...... OK, seeking advice/opinions. Plan to re-power a renovated 1996 Brunswick Spectrum Cruise DLX 24' pontoon in GREAT shape (we've owned it from new), rated for a 125hp. Currently still using the stock 1996 75hp FORCE (250lbs) (quit laughing!!! -- she's been reliable but SLOW). After HOURS of research, narrowed down to SUZUKI DF115b or DF140bg (400lbs) dbw controls. (Going to have a fabricator renovate/upgrade the transom for additional weight/torque.) A little confused about which I should invest in. The 115hp or the 140hp? Sounds like most of you say go for the DBW! Thoughts? Jackplate?
THANKS!
ssp

 

[pwiseman]

Going over the max HP on the sticker might cause some challenges with insurance or if you get stopped by law enforcement. Even if you take steps to make your boat safe with the 140, it might not be worth the hassles you you could run into.

Suzuki 140 gives you more HP for the same weight as 115. That is a good thing, but I would have to ask how much the extra 25 HP is going to get you and is it worth potential hassles that can be avoided.

If you had to look at something else, the merc Command Thrust 115 is about 50 lbs lighter than the suzuki with lower gear ratio that should work well for pushing a toon.

Guessing you do not have lift strakes on the toons due to the age. This is also something to look at in terms selecting 140 over the 115.

 

[Starcraft5834]

Ive got a 2019 4stroke Merc 115. on my 20ft toon. Rated at 125hp.. No complaints with the Merc. can ski and tube or just putt around.... would avoid going over manf recommendations

 

[Rabbit929]

I would think lifting strokes and the 115 would be the best bang for the buck without straining anything.
more power is always nice, but in most cases a proper gear ratio rated for a toon and a little less weight I think would be more beneficial.
im pretty sure no matter what we say your gonna do what I always do, MORE POWR BABEH.

Having said that, bolt it on, brace it up a bit and beef up the transom, put an actuated lift plate on, some lifting strokes and send it. When they rate these for failure, engineering rates it for 1/3rd of its breaking point. So at 140 you’ll need to be sure to add some transom beef if you ever want to have peace of mind. It is cool to have a fast toon but I’m just skiddish of making one faster than it needs to be so I don’t hit a wave wrong and submarine, and wind up in a fail video on YouTube.

 

[surfsalterpath]

Going over the max HP on the sticker might cause some challenges with insurance or if you get stopped by law enforcement. Even if you take steps to make your boat safe with the 140, it might not be worth the hassles you you could run into.

Suzuki 140 gives you more HP for the same weight as 115. That is a good thing, but I would have to ask how much the extra 25 HP is going to get you and is it worth potential hassles that can be avoided.

If you had to look at something else, the merc Command Thrust 115 is about 50 lbs lighter than the suzuki with lower gear ratio that should work well for pushing a toon.

Guessing you do not have lift strakes on the toons due to the age. This is also something to look at in terms selecting 140 over the 115.

....... thanks for the advice. Researching the Merc "command thrust" gearcase" I ran across the "SeaPro" gearcase. Do you have any experience w/ the "SeaPro" gearcase on a pontoon? I like the workhorse sales pitch. lol!

page 63 in this Merc download:

https://embed.widencdn.net/pdf/plus/mercurymarine/oceb4dh8gm/propulsion_brochure.pdf?u=orhjei

 

[surfsalterpath]

I would think lifting strokes and the 115 would be the best bang for the buck without straining anything.
more power is always nice, but in most cases a proper gear ratio rated for a toon and a little less weight I think would be more beneficial.
im pretty sure no matter what we say your gonna do what I always do, MORE POWR BABEH.

Having said that, bolt it on, brace it up a bit and beef up the transom, put an actuated lift plate on, some lifting strokes and send it. When they rate these for failure, engineering rates it for 1/3rd of its breaking point. So at 140 you’ll need to be sure to add some transom beef if you ever want to have peace of mind. It is cool to have a fast toon but I’m just skiddish of making one faster than it needs to be so I don’t hit a wave wrong and submarine, and wind up in a fail video on YouTube.

...... so true all ALL counts!
I like the sales pitch of the Suzuki's. ie: DriveByWire etc
But am trying to stay open to ALL idea's! At 64 yrs, I'm thinking this will be my last outboard purchased and hope to make it the RIGHT one! lol ~
THANKS for the tips!

 

[ahicks]

I'm looking at the waterline in that first pic, which makes it appear the boat is already sitting on the low side with the original motor (more than half of the toon is already under water!). Wondering how much lower it's going to sit with ANY additional weight back there. FYI, a 50-60 hp 4 stroke with power trim and tilt will weigh about the same as the Force that's on there now. If you boost that weight to that of a 115 or so 4 stroke, your boat is going to sit noteceably lower than it does now. So there's that...

Then, back when this boat was rated for max hp, the 4 strokes were pretty rare, and the extra weight involved 2 stroke 125hp vs. 4 stoke 125hp, was not likely factored in when that rating was created.

My point is, I hate to poop in your Cherios, but if there's a real need for this extra power you're considering, that's one thing, but it you're buying it because you think it would be neat to have it, I'd suggest you reconsider. It may turn out to be way more trouble than its worth. -Al

 

[surfsalterpath]

I'm looking at the waterline in that first pic, which makes it appear the boat is already sitting on the low side with the original motor (more than half of the toon is already under water!). Wondering how much lower it's going to sit with ANY additional weight back there. FYI, a 50-60 hp 4 stroke with power trim and tilt will weigh about the same as the Force that's on there now. If you boost that weight to that of a 115 or so 4 stroke, your boat is going to sit noteceably lower than it does now. So there's that...

Then, back when this boat was rated for max hp, the 4 strokes were pretty rare, and the extra weight involved 2 stroke 125hp vs. 4 stoke 125hp, was not likely factored in when that rating was created.

My point is, I hate to poop in your Cherios, but if there's a real need for this extra power you're considering, that's one thing, but it you're buying it because you think it would be neat to have it, I'd suggest you reconsider. It may turn out to be way more trouble than its worth. -Al

....... THANKS! I had not thought of the boat sitting deeper. I see what you are saying. I probably painted the line higher than I needed to.
Here is a better pic actually sitting in water better showing the actual waterline. You think it is still an issue?

 

[ahicks]

I was looking at that white area in the first pic. In my experience, that's going to be pretty close to where it's actually sitting.

With no other changes, yes, that's very likely going to be a "low rider" with a heavier (400lb) motor.

Jack plate, which would move the motor back further by design - AND add weight where you don't want it - would make this issue even worse.

If you're dead set on a heavier motor, you could make the situation a little better by moving anything now under the rear seats forward. -Al

 

[pwiseman]

....... thanks for the advice. Researching the Merc "command thrust" gearcase" I ran across the "SeaPro" gearcase. Do you have any experience w/ the "SeaPro" gearcase on a pontoon? I like the workhorse sales pitch. lol!

page 63 in this Merc download:

https://embed.widencdn.net/pdf/plus/mercurymarine/oceb4dh8gm/propulsion_brochure.pdf?u=orhjei

I don't have any info on the seapro. I can say that other info here about older boats and 4 strokes is spot on and you really do need to watch weight.

Yamaha 50/60/70 is a 1.0 liter that weighs around 260 lbs
Yamaha 75/90/115 is 1.8 liter that weighs around 375 lbs
Merc 75/90/115 is 2.1 liter that weighs around 360 lbs
suzuki 70/90 is 1.5 L that weighs around 350 lbs
suzuki 115/140 is 2.0 L that weighs over 400 lbs

the yamaha 70 is really good power to weight combo. Hard to beat but perhaps not enough ponies to make you smile. The Suzuki 90 is a better choice that 115/140 in my opinion but probably makes more sense to look at the merc or yamaha 115 if power is your objective

One thing you can do if you have time is grab some weights and add them on the back of your current rig. That should give an idea how the weight will make your boat sit. That might experiment might make it easier to decide what works best for you.

 

[surfsalterpath]

I don't have any info on the seapro. I can say that other info here about older boats and 4 strokes is spot on and you really do need to watch weight.

Yamaha 50/60/70 is a 1.0 liter that weighs around 260 lbs
Yamaha 75/90/115 is 1.8 liter that weighs around 375 lbs
Merc 75/90/115 is 2.1 liter that weighs around 360 lbs
suzuki 70/90 is 1.5 L that weighs around 350 lbs
suzuki 115/140 is 2.0 L that weighs over 400 lbs

the yamaha 70 is really good power to weight combo. Hard to beat but perhaps not enough ponies to make you smile. The Suzuki 90 is a better choice that 115/140 in my opinion but probably makes more sense to look at the merc or yamaha 115 if power is your objective

One thing you can do if you have time is grab some weights and add them on the back of your current rig. That should give an idea how the weight will make your boat sit. That might experiment might make it easier to decide what works best for you.

....... good ideas! Often I will invite neighbors to cruise with us and will have 3 grown adults (150lbs ea) sitting on the back seats. I've never noticed any difference in the handling. The pontoon is rated for 17 persons/2325 lbs. The original "spec sheet" is attached. 23" tubes.

I really appreciate the input. Sure makes me think deeper about things I never thought of before. And I'm pretty detail-oriented. lol ~

 

[ahicks]

I have 23" tubes under my Honda 90 powered 24' boat. Re-power was done during an entire rebuild project where the boat was taken down to bare alum. I started with a floor plan very similar to yours. The 4' front deck was shortened to 18" by moving the entire railing system forward, creating a swim deck on the BACK of the boat, where we added a permanently mounted ladder to the back of the starboard pontoon. This makes the '99 model year boat look very much like a much newer boat - AND - moved enough weight forward where the Honda 90 is supported easily.

Noteworthy (something else to condider) is that the boat was originally powered by a 40 Johnson, and one of the rear cross members that support the engine pod was sagging/bent! The idea that a 40 had managed to do that led to the idea of doubling up that cross member (which I turned over to leave the bow in it up) and adding another cross member to deal with the extra power and weight of the Honda. -Al

 

[surfsalterpath]

I have 23" tubes under my Honda 90 powered 24' boat. Re-power was done during an entire rebuild project where the boat was taken down to bare alum. I started with a floor plan very similar to yours. The 4' front deck was shortened to 18" by moving the entire railing system forward, creating a swim deck on the BACK of the boat, where we added a permanently mounted ladder to the back of the starboard pontoon. This makes the '99 model year boat look very much like a much newer boat - AND - moved enough weight forward where the Honda 90 is supported easily.

Noteworthy (something else to condider) is that the boat was originally powered by a 40 Johnson, and one of the rear cross members that support the engine pod was sagging/bent! The idea that a 40 had managed to do that led to the idea of doubling up that cross member (which I turned over to leave the bow in it up) and adding another cross member to deal with the extra power and weight of the Honda. -Al

......... your input is very much appreciated! Giving me lots of ideas and help to think thru the selection process. You can see why I'm planning on the transom renovation. And yea, we're a salt water boat that has been in the salt since 1996! I feel lucky to have been able to keep the boat updated and the 1996 75hp FORCE running all this time w/ very little investment. Only majors I can think of is the lower gearcase rebuild and a rectifier replaced, in addition to the regular maintenance. Oh and a tilt/trim rebuild and about 4 tilt/trim hydraulic pumps. Salt water DESTROYS! lol ~
At 64 yrs old I figure it's time to splurge and try to get one last hoorah out of the pontoon for my lifetime! She's been a GREAT Family tool! No doubt. Lot's of history and memories!

 

[ahicks]

I'm 70, currently a snowbird commuting between a lakefront home in SE MI, and a second home near the FL Gulf Coast (far enough away where I don't need to worry about hurricanes or flooding, close enough where trailering just takes a few minutes). I've had a pontoon tied up at a dock in the front yard of the Mi house for the last 45 summers or so. I do all of my own work so "been there done that" when it comes to 'toons. That rebuild/repower was done when I was 67, and with the same thought - this will be the last one!

On top of that, I have kind of an unusual hobby (among others). I like resurrecting dead Honda 40-90 engines. They're all I work on. Put them back into good or better condition, no matter what it takes. Could be a lower unit, a trim/tilt pump, a hole in a block, or a combination of all of the above! Gives me something to do, and mad money for toys when they're sold. Like the Honda 90 powered 22' alum deck boat we trailer around here. Point being, yup, VERY familiar with what it takes to keep a "salty" going... -Al

 

[surfsalterpath]

I'm 70, currently a snowbird commuting between a lakefront home in SE MI, and a second home near the FL Gulf Coast (far enough away where I don't need to worry about hurricanes or flooding, close enough where trailering just takes a few minutes). I've had a pontoon tied up at a dock in the front yard of the Mi house for the last 45 summers or so. I do all of my own work so "been there done that" when it comes to 'toons. That rebuild/repower was done when I was 67, and with the same thought - this will be the last one!

On top of that, I have kind of an unusual hobby (among others). I like resurrecting dead Honda 40-90 engines. They're all I work on. Put them back into good or better condition, no matter what it takes. Could be a lower unit, a trim/tilt pump, a hole in a block, or a combination of all of the above! Gives me something to do, and mad money for toys when they're sold. Like the Honda 90 powered 22' alum deck boat we trailer around here. Point being, yup, VERY familiar with what it takes to keep a "salty" going... -Al

....... I'm def am NOT a boat mechanic. When yT came out and these chat rooms, I figured I would try to solve many of the issues the "salt effect" threw my way on the FORCE. An example, first sat of July 4th vaca about 4 yrs ago we had a boat full ready for a GREAT day/week boating. Pulling out of the canal (luckily I could walk it back in) the engine died. Went thru all the usual. Weak battery, fuses, dirty fuel, fuel pump, plugs, coils etc etc. Me and a Friend spent the next 4 days brainstorming and testing. Finally got down to having to check the continuity on every wire going thru the controls cabling (I think there were about 8 wires or so, all dif colors.) This is where I learned about a "wiring harness' and how much it cost to buy this relic! $$300-$400 on ebay 1996 75hp FORCE!!!! When I went to "unplug" the wiring harness under the cowl, the plug was totally corroded stuck!!!!! {Lesson LEARNED!!!} We ran a wire to where the white wire connects and BAM!!!!! the engine turned over. After 4 days!!!! Talk about excited!!!! Evidently the "white wire" was corroded somewhere in the cable of the corroded wiring harness plugs. Dang!!!! So due to the expense and wait time for a part, I decided to dissect both plugs and connect them w/ heat-shrink butt connectors. Limited wire length so I had to save as much wire as possible. Now I know how a surgeon feels and it took about 3-4 hours standing in canal muck in the blistering sun to do it right. BUT, it sure was confidence building! What a learning experience. 1st pic shows wires. 2nd pic shows when we totally rewired with Blue Sea and added the dual battery set up. I should have done this when we got the pontoon! Thanks again for sharing your input and experiences. I'm in SalterPath, NC. The hurricanes sure give us a challenge. Especially the backsides of hOphelia'05 and hFlorence'18. But we survived, ............ this time.

 

[ahicks]

<<<I'm def am NOT a boat mechanic.>>>

Me neither! I retired after 20 years in IT, hardware and software, with a big chunk of database management tossed in for good luck! I could never do that for a living, but I sure like messing with it when I feel like it!

 

[surfsalterpath]

..... UPDATE! Success! I do not have the Suzuki DF140bg yet so my objective is to salvage what I can for this summer season w/ the 1996 FORCE 75hp! It's been a decent outboard for this 24' pontoon BUT, I just NEVER felt like it has been "dialed in" to operate/perform to its capabilities. I've upgraded almost everything on it except the marine deck flooring plywood, in pretty decent shape and this basic simple (3 cylinder-1 carburetor ) entry-level economical workhorse outboard FORCE.

As you can tell by my posts, I NOT an outboard mechanic but I do a fair amount of research online. Since last season (2020) this FORCE just quit - died when I tried to return to port, idle speed. The WORST scenario! Loss of control in precarious tight situations is NOT GOOD!

I've NEVER had the confidence to remove carb to clean nor hardly any other engine repair and leaned on the marine mechanics to take care of this engine. Knowing what I know now I think I should have pressed the mechanics to get this engine "dialed in!" Shame I PAID top $$$ for service done that never seemed to be "right."

So, bearing down on trying to figure out the "idle issue" these are the steps I completed in order accomplished based on ideas gleaned from multiple forums/chat rooms:

1: seafoam (ha ha ha) the easiest wish me luck it works step Still "idle issue"
2: start turning ALL screws that I had no idea what the hell I was doing, I learned after the fact, messing all the sync settings up! hint: NEVER do that again! Still "idle issue"
Although, kin hindsight this "forced" me to LEARN the "sync" process!!!! YEA!
3: replace spark plugs. Interesting outcome. I've been using NGK BUHW and engine would almost fire up 1st or 2nd hit w/ throttle asking for fuel. Yet the CHAMPION L76V is spec and that's all I had. When I put the L76V in it would take 7-15 key turns for it to hit. .... hmmmmm! I immediately went in search for the NGK BUHW. Reinstalled and dang, fired right up! But still "idle issue" (note: NGK's ALL THE TIME)
4: tach not reading regular and stereo volume cutting out when ignition engaged trying to start. So it was suggested to replace the VR, voltage regulator. Found a $20 china special and replaced. "idle issue STILL! dejected!
5: Now the CHALLENGE was ON! Had a " knowledgeable mechanical Friend" helping me think thru the troubleshooting. He sent me forum/chat links and I researched a LOT! Areas of concern popping up were compression, spark, fuel delivery, carb, reeds, controls sync etc etc.
6: So I decided to bite the bullet and buy several parts about $1000 spent in all, to fix an outboard value at what? $200? Crazy, I know. But 'challenge was ON! that "might" be at fault for this crappy "idle issue!" New ignition wires, 3 new REED BLOCK ASSEMBLY", reed adaptor plate (could have used the original), new carb mixture screws, bowl, recirculation one-way valves etc etc. All this adds up!!!! $$$$$ QUICK! Oh yea, a dedicated 1996 FORCE 75 hp manual. Had the Clymers but it covered multiple years/hp's confusing! But Clymer's does have GREAT tips scattered throughout!
7: Replaced the spark plug to coils ignition wire even though only about 4 years old. Sure enough lot of corrosion (salt water). Engine fired right up (NGK's) , w/throttle cam asking for gas! STILL "idle issue" RATS!
8: Next the biggie! REED VALVES and CARB CLEAN. Dove right in. Grease under fingernails and ALL! Interesting process. Sure enough, ONLY 2 reeds in only 1 REED BLOCK were staying open! Could this be the "idle issue" culprit??? Cleaned the carb, which based on the GUNK in the lower bowl jet threads looked to have not been taken apart in MANY years!!! Friend said SEAFOAM did its job. Cleanest innards he's seen on a carb not pulled apart for SO LONG! But, the SEAFOAM did not fix the "idle issue" !!!!! lol~ Yet, beneficial to do, I think.
9: BAM!!!! Fired right up. REED VALVES!!!! and CARB CLEAN win! Pretty decent idle BUT now the FINE TUNING has to be done. WHY? b/c remember? I turned all those idle/timing etc screws randomly hoping for a "random" fix! THAT does NOT happen, I learned.
9: So now I followed the sync settings in the dedicated FORCE manual. Timing, throttle cam on eccentric roller screw, butterfly valve, WOT, idle speed screw etc etc. With a VERY rusty flywheel never could figure out the timing until we decided we HAD to! At this point the 1996 FORCE 75hp ran pretty good in a test run. BUT, it just was NOT right still! So decided we had to bear down on the "timing" Back to the dedicated service manual!
10: Learned about the "crank timing" so I cut the peacock off and ran the now idling nicely engine out of fuel. Hooked wire from red solenoid start to battery to get engine crank and spark but NO START! Dialed the TIMING in to 32deg BTDC as spec call for. Went for "test ride" BOOM! #WINNING! FINALLY, DIALED IN! engine wise! All these years only getting about 15-18 (downwind) just think that's the best the 75hp could do! Now getting 18 into a 20mph wind and 28 downwind! WOW!
11: Doing all this research I ran across the "engine height/cavitation plate depth" setting and began to observe the amount lower unit spray. TOO MUCH! Now I'm pretty sure I need to raise my engine a notch or 2!!!! Oh my!
12: Had one more issue I needed to address. About 6 years ago I (myself) replaced the mechanical steering for HYDRAULIC (best upgrade ever at the time) and the old quicksiler binnacle for a uFlex binnacle. Not really know what I was doing BUT HAD IT FUNCTIONING, I set the binnacle lever "neutral setting" back a notch. It worked. But now that ALL the settings/syncs were correct the uFlex binnacle levr bottomed out before I reverse got enough throttle to perform with assertiveness! Took a bit of thinking, I was initially focused on shift/throttle control cables even had them taken off to re-adjust, to narrow this down to just a simple removal of the lever and reinsert to middle up neutral position! WHEW! Someone SAVED me from touch those control cables! That would have created ALL kinds of HAVOC on the NOW SYNCed set up!
13: Dialed in!!!! Cost about $1000 + LOTS ofresearch and greasy hands on time but ........ SATISFACTION!

Apologize for the rant. When I 1st started messing around with having an outboard I read a LOT of FrankA's advice. He is great! Sure miss seeing his posts!

 

[roscoe]

Sounds like a great learning experience. Frustrating at times I'm sure, but you attacked and conquered !

It's amazing how many "little" things can go wrong with a motor over time, and most were barely noticeable, non were catastrophic. But together, they made for a carpy running motor.

Glad you succeeded and the Force lives on. Good Job.

 

[surfsalterpath]

Sounds like a great learning experience. Frustrating at times I'm sure, but you attacked and conquered !

It's amazing how many "little" things can go wrong with a motor over time, and most were barely noticeable, non were catastrophic. But together, they made for a carpy running motor.

Glad you succeeded and the Force lives on. Good Job.

Thank you!

 

[surfsalterpath]

re: 1996 FORCE 75hp "idle issue"

OK, issue. I was all pumped up. Idle issue RETURNED after going for a 5000rpm 1hr test run. Idled GREAT at dock and on 2 short test runs but has now returned. #bummed but NOT giving up just yet!

Next troubleshooting repairs I will make are:

a: replace the fuel primer bulb and line (replaced in 2015 the grey fuel line attwood kit by mechanic) w/a 3/8" high output bulb and the BLACK fuel line. I've seen too many complain about the "grey" fuel line insides deteriorating. Vaild? And replace the BLACK fuel line from the fuel pump to the fule filter and from the fuel filter to the carb. Not sure if it has ever been replaced.

b: rebuild my fuel pump - purchased the diaphragm rebuild kit and new gasket.

c: Go back in to the reed block assembly and put LOCTITE on those
screws (6) that hold the 3 reed blocks in on the reed adaptor plate. Newby mistake, I forgot the LOCTITE/DRYLOC the manual called for on those screws. Think I can reuse those NEW gaskets I just installed last week?

d: replace the recirculation (3) one-way valves and the recirculation tubing. The two-way valves I think should be alright. Thoughts?

e: fingers crossed for one (or all) of these to fix the "idle issue" once and for all!

Any other ideas that I need to consider?

Thanks for any tips!