Ralph Peters today in USA today

stevieray

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I'm with you 100% on that one, crunch. The "religion as business" thing is what really turned me off of it in the first place. And it started me "critically thinking" about the rest of it, leading me to the above questioning & resulting conclusions.
 

crunch

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I'm not trying to slam anyone’s beliefs, they can have them and more power to them... just as long as those beliefs don't over power their power of critical thinking, and as long as those beliefs don't impact me.

I think it was QC(?) that said the theory of evolution was created..... probably true, which does not invalidate the theory of evolution. :p
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Hey Stevieray, The night sky, and what Albert Einstein and gaints like Edwin Hubble, Max Planck et al theroized for all of us is an order of ALL things. The order can do good things, (from our perspective), or bad things, (again from our perspective) but order can not come from eternal random chaos, IMHO, and I am not alone in that theory, (the big guns tend to agree). Crunch ranted about a large rock or iron chunk hitting the planet 65 million years back + or -. That was bad for the dinosaur/birds and good for us, but it was part of that same order I have referred to herein. Every living thing we know of compares very favorably to man made machines in the unique design of the life form, (even the misquito or the tape worm or very simple life forms). The fact that it is a good life form or a bad life form is moot and very much based upon one's perception. The sadness you or I feel for a small child suffering from starvation or cancer is again our perception. There is life and life wants to live, sometimes that means preditors eat other living things which seems unfair, (again perception). Why is there any evil? I dunno, maybe free agency, and maybe with consequences, (at least one would certianly hope). The religious types explain that by talking about the Devil, and it works for me as a Christian, (but I try not to focus on negative things). Has Christianity stiffled science? Why yes, but we have modernized so we allow science to proceed these days, (thank GOD). Most problems with various religions are caused by man, (and women but primarily men). If you are a good guy in as many ways as possible yet you reject the grace of God will you burn in hell? I hope not, but the good book would seem to put you at some risk. Again I or any other mortal can't possibly make that judgement call. That is God's call. Is life, or the order we see at night fair? From our perspective it may not seem that way but that is the way it is. When you look up at Orion tonight if the sky is clear there is a very large star: Betelgeuse (upper left: red orange very bright star). We think it is 427 light years from us. We think it would engulf Jupiter's orbit if it were centered where our sun is. It has 300 times the sun's volume 15 times the mass, 500-800 times the diamiter. When she blows, (likely a type II supernova), let's just hope her pole does not point our way, (very small chance that it will). If it does, about 427 years after the blast, (look out Rubber), we could cease to exist from the gamma rays out of the resulting black hole. That would be a real bummer. Would that disprove God? Not on your life or mine. Type II supernovas are what creates the building blocks for life. If I die tomorrow, (which I don't want to do), I know I will and do cornsider myself to be very fortunate. I live in a great country, have a great life, had lots of fun, and have very few regrets. Beliefs can't be proven, nor can one person convince another of free will. This is something very individual, and I for one am glad I have concluded my search. Sorry if I have offended here. Respectfully, JR
 

crunch

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Ol Murky ain't being so Murky.... great post. :p

Still, don't prove there is a god, but it does show how little we may know about what that "creator" had in mind.

My bet is it wasn't the "cluster Fuch" we have going on today...
 

crunch

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Hey JR, just how far have you gotten into stellar physics and just plain nuclear physics? (not the bomb stuff, just how things work)?
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I just read n' learn. I was a EE for a year at the UW many moons ago, but I changed to a business major. I hated ta learn things over and over, as business principals are like riding a bike once you have 'em you have 'em. JR
 

crunch

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I got a degree at SHK many moons ago, but my passion has always been physics, in all of it's myriad forms....

Maybe we should really get down some day and discuss what we have learned.... from the microscopic to the macroscopic.... in a PM of course.... we'd bore the "H" out of everyone here, I'm sure. :p
 

stevieray

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Murky,
I think your post #1038 was meant to be directed at me - not at QC. :%

I am well aware that neither you nor me nor crunch are going to prove or disprove anything here - I do, however, enjoy & appreciate the open exchange of thoughts & ideas.

Peace out.
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

stevieray said:
Murky,
I think your post #1038 was meant to be directed at me - not at QC. :%

I am well aware that neither you nor me nor crunch are going to prove or disprove anything here - I do, however, enjoy & appreciate the open exchange of thoughts & ideas.

Peace out.

Yep you are right I will edit. JR ps Both you and QC are very skilled at debate, (and very well informed as well) so I get the two of you cornfusted: sorry!8)8)
 

crunch

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

It isn't all about the "mythology of religion".... whether it is right or wrong.... to me it is the consequences of RELIGION that worry me the most..... when we die, we will, or will not know the answer, until then we have to live in this world.
 

QC

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

crunch said:
I think it was QC(?) that said the theory of evolution was created..... probably true, which does not invalidate the theory of evolution. :p

I think you missed my point. It is not the theory that I believe was created, I believe the process was. I simply don't believe that creation and evolution are mutually exclusive. In fact I don't understand the debate at all with the exception of "created in his image".

For stevieray, I'll give you my favorite beauty example: No, not Pam Anderson . . .
14.gif
. . . Time released irrigation . . . That is precisely what our seasons, surface elevation changes, and the three phases of water give us. Time released irrigation . . .

Even prior to reservoirs, there was (and is) this amazing natural storage system. In winter much of our precipitation falls as snow (one of those water phase deals) especially at higher elevations, it stays put rather nicely when most of the planet doesn't need it. Water (another phase of the stuff) falls quite readily at lower elevations during winter. But come summer, in many places the rain stops, but how convenient, we have this solid form of the stuff converting itself to this liquid version and it merrily flows downhill from the uphill storage facility of the solid stuff. These facilities are often referred to as mountains. And then, there is another really cool part, there is this whole other phase of the stuff, that allows it to be transported back up to the solid phase storage facility for next year.
 

crunch

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I think you missed my point. It is not the theory that I believe was created, I believe the process was. I simply don't believe that creation and evolution are mutually exclusive. In fact I don't understand the debate at all with the exception of "created in his image".

One and the same at this point of our understanding...


Think of it as a difference of perception.... you might think of a God starting all of this, laying out all of the rules, and preordaining what we see here... and ruling our lives to his own goals?

I see it as one of 20 billion different universes, each one different, each with a different set of physical rules... each with their own potential....

Just because this set of rules worked out so as we see "worth" in ourselves, doesn't mean we are the only ones... the "end all, be all" of creation.

With an infinite possibility of permentation within the basic rules of physics, how could anyone be so vain as to think/believe they were created in God's own image?... or have the hubris to pretend knowledge of that “God’s” goals?


I'm out of here on this theme.... no one can prove nothing to another..... that's why it's called faith.
 

QC

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

crunch said:
I see it as one of 20 billion different universes, each one different, each with a different set of physical rules... each with their own potential....
How is that inconsistent with a Creator?

crunch said:
Just because this set of rules worked out so as we see "worth" in ourselves, doesn't mean we are the only ones... the "end all, be all" of creation.
You must be talkin' to somebody else. All I ever said in this thread was that the concept of a Creator and/or Creation is logical.

crunch said:
With an infinite possibility of permentation within the basic rules of physics, how could anyone be so vain as to think/believe they were created in God's own image?... or have the hubris to pretend knowledge of that “God’s” goals?
Ditto last comment . . .

crunch said:
I'm out of here on this theme.... no one can prove nothing to another..... that's why it's called faith.
I am not trying to "prove" anything. I am only suggesting that you are thinking so hard you may have missed a much easier explanation. One that, although it may require faith, requires no less logic. And, uh, how pray tell, does your list above not require faith?
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Very Good QC, Ya know Crunch you are debating the specifics about the nature of God, which is somewhat moot to me as a "cafeteria Christian". Those details are not clear to me and some other Liberal Christians, and there are clearly what appear to me to be mistakes, (maybe mistaken communication from the BIG FELLA), in the good book, (which one could understand do to the lenght of time and the fact that ancient man put the inspired words to paper). As QC points out: it takes more faith to believe there is no intelligent design to creation then to observe how well all things seem to fit into a definate order EVERYWHERE that works very well. Again: does God micro manage each and every detail, (as I believe God could), or does he allow a great degree of free agency to occur within all the processes he set in motion. Me thinks the latter, (but there could be a Devil in the details). Are we in God's image, and is God a he? I'm not going to answer so not to offend others, but those are details that are not clear to me. Who is the single most important philosopher, (maybe a whole lot more) to ever live in human history? That's what cements the deal for me. Did Jesus play to the power of the times or obviously transend the power? Is that unique in human history? How did Christianity survive and eventualy prosper with all the competition that in many ways was playing to the power, while Christians were being fed to lions et al. Has mankind (men specifically) corrupted Christianity in an organized fashon? Yah sure youbetchya. Does that really alter the real and I MEAN REAL BIG PICTURE? NOT FOR ME. But as you and others have stated this is about faith. Respectfully, (and I do not mean to offend here), JR [colour=blue]ps I screwed up on the last tome. Betelgeuse would likely not become a "black hole" after a type II supernova. It would likely become a "neutron star", (still a rather spectacular event). I'm an old fart and cosmology, (an interest of mine), is evolving fairly rapidly due to modern science, n' some of the tools we now have in orbit. The current state of theory is that a star of 20 solar mass is necessary to produce an event that could result in a "black hole". This large late in life star is only 75% of that figure. Sorry for the mistake. The potential gamma ray burst could still be a real big problem if the axis of rotation pointed at us. BTW Rigel, (the other truly big gun in the constellation Orion: lower right oposite Betelgeuse) is only a 17 solar mass supergiant 700 - 900 light years from us, and not quite as late in life.
In the summer sky, (in the Northern US), the star that is a real 'blue super giant' burner of sufficient size to likely result in a "black hole" after the supernova explosion that ends it's life is: Deneb of "Cygni" at the vertice of the "Summer Triangle" This star is 1600 to 7400 light years from us, (likely 3200 light years) yet still is the 19th brightest star we can see. That just stuns me, to ponder something that big and luminous, (prior to a "red giant status")! It is 200 to 300 times the diameter of our sun, (about earth's orbit BTW) 60,000 to 500,000 times the brightness of our star, (likely 250,000 times at 3200 light years). It has a 20 - 25 times solar mass, which is large enough, (critical mass in the real sense), to present a likely "black hole" at death.[/colour] Jus' somethin' ta ponder when yer out on a dark summer night on a big dark pond somewhere tellin' yer kids or grandkids 'bout some truely amazin' stuff.
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I'm just postin' ta bring this back to the top. Some may rather not read this, as it may upset them. I don't mean to offend but thought this may interest some of you. JR
 

RubberFrog

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Tell us more about the stars, daddy.
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Do not say Betelgeuse three times in a row......:%
 
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