Problem Replacing old incandescent NAV lights with LED lights

[3rdMarDiv]

1142 Ba15d Led Bulb White, Low Voltage 12V 1004 1076 1130 1142 1176 LED Light Bulb, 5w Double Contact Bayonet Waterproof 6000K, Equivalent 35W, For Rv Trailer, Camper, Marine are the ones I ordered...​

Trying to replace the front and rear NAV lights on a 1959 MFG Tri-Hull that are wired in series using the old style 2 prong plug in and twist to lock in bulbs.

Got a 2 pack of these LED's to replace front and rear NAV lights. The front had one incandescent and the stern had one. When I flip the NAV switch both the front and rear came on.

When I replaced the old rear one with a led, it worked. Then I replaced the front light and neither worked.

When I put the old incandescent back in the front the rear worked again.

If I put the LED back in the front and and put the old incandescent into the rear, the front will work with the LED installed.

In both cases the incandescent bulbs won't work with the LED installed into the other (both) sockets.

Just guessing here, but it seems the LED lights want their own circuit an don't want to be wired in series.

I'm thinking the LED lights are allowing the negative feed wire to be used but not the positive wire?

I thought I could just buy 2 bulbs and replace the old ones, but thats not happening...LOL

Any assistance will be appreciated.

 

[dingbat]

12 DC LED have built in resistors.
When you connect LED lights in series, the 12v is going to be divided equally among the LED lights. Thus, if you have 2 LED lights, 6v for each one. If you have 3 LED lights, 4v for each one

Would have to wire in parallel

 

[3rdMarDiv]

Adding link and pics for led lights:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086DDRZY7?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

 

[3rdMarDiv]

12 DC LED have built in resistors.
When you connect LED lights in series, the 12v is going to be divided equally among the LED lights. Thus, if you have 2 LED lights, 6v for each one. If you have 3 LED lights, 4v for each one

Would have to wire in parallel

Thanks so much for the fast reply. I believed it was going to be something like that. It explains why one alone works great and with 2 neither work. Even with one LED and one incandescent on the chain, the incandescent won't work as the LED is grabbing the 12v.

You really helped me as I hate to do what I think is right only to find I should have asked here for some advice first...

Safe boating to you.!

 

[04fxdwgi25]

Just curious why the lights are in series? If you have a 12V battery, and they are in series, the bulbs need to be rated at 6VDC each if they are the same bulbs, (each bulb would drop 6VDC x 2 for a total of 12VDC) for them to be at rated lumens.

All 12VDC systems bulbs are connected in parallel with a 12VDC rated bulb.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Is the LED socket wired so the B+ is connected to the B+ of the LED? They are polarity sensitive.

 

[3rdMarDiv]

Just curious why the lights are in series? If you have a 12V battery, and they are in series, the bulbs need to be rated at 6VDC each if they are the same bulbs, (each bulb would drop 6VDC x 2 for a total of 12VDC) for them to be at rated lumens.

All 12VDC systems bulbs are connected in parallel with a 12VDC rated bulb.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Is the LED socket wired so the B+ is connected to the B+ of the LED? They are polarity sensitive.

Good question and I did consider polarity. I am only saying they are wired in series due to both lights working from one switch. When I flip on the NAV Lights switch only the bow and aft Old incandescent lights come on. If I remove one of the bulbs the other won't work. That's the basic premises I'm working from.

Going from all the ads these bulbs are sold as plug and play. Take out the old, stick in the new and bingo, you are all set.

As far as polarity goes, I took one bulb and turned it 180 degrees. That didn't work, so after turning one 180 I turned them both 180. still nothing. I know which wires are positive and negative, but these bulbs aren't marked + or -?

Are you saying I need to try more combination of insertion possibilities?

The LED lights are night and day better than the old bulbs, so I would keep trying. Right now I'm resigning myself to just using the old bulbs, which at least do work, rather than doing any rewire work.

I'll try any suggestions you have, other than rewiring...LOL From my posts you should read that I would probably just makes things worse...LOL

I already looked into finding 6 volt LED's as even they would be better than the old ones, but I cannot find any.

Hope this helps with your thinking and I appreciate your spending any time looking into this for me.

 

[dingbat]

Just curious why the lights are in series? If you have a 12V battery, and they are in series, the bulbs need to be rated at 6VDC each if they are the same bulbs, (each bulb would drop 6VDC x 2 for a total of 12VDC) for them to be at rated lumens.

All 12VDC systems bulbs are connected in parallel with a 12VDC rated bulb.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Is the LED socket wired so the B+ is connected to the B+ of the LED? They are polarity sensitive.

He is retrofitting incandescence light circuits with LED

 

[3rdMarDiv]

He is retrofitting incandescence light circuits with LED

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B099W1ZCS...NCIDMPWZV&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

YUP, Trying to upgrade to the 21st century.

These look to be different to the ones I am trying to make work now and seem to me a possibility?? They do state the they are like the old ones with a POS and NEG posts?? They are BA15D's compatible and specifically say for BOW and STERN lights??

What the heck...Give em a try

With my luck though, the resistors Dingbat talked about will come into play and these won't work either..LOL

 

[dingbat]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B099W1ZCS...NCIDMPWZV&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

YUP, Trying to upgrade to the 21st century.

These look to be different to the ones I am trying to make work now and seem to me a possibility?? They do state the they are like the old ones with a POS and NEG posts?? They are BA15D's compatible and specifically say for BOW and STERN lights??

Has nothing to do with the "post".

The problem you have is that LED operate at roughly 3-3.5 volts DC and your supplying them with with 12 volts. You can either reduce the voltage with resistors. power them in parallel, or power them through a dedicated, low voltage power source.

Should just be able to rewire the switch to parallel operation. With worst comes to worst, change out the switch for one that is LED compatible, IE setup for LED operation.

 

[04fxdwgi25]

According to the pic you provided, the bulbs are bi-pin, so rotating 180 will change polarity. I believe what you are chasing is a wiring / switch problem, especially since it is a boat over 60 years old. I would bet even money, the wiring has been "repaired" form time to time by a shade tree.

The resistors in the LEDs are voltage drop down resistors so they (2.2 to 4 volts) can be used on 12 VDC systems, All the bulbs should be in parallel, not series. Won't work in series, unless you are making your own very unconventional set up and if in series, if one goes bad, they all go out. Simple Ohms law.

The bow and stern / all around lites are totally independent of each other, except they run off same switch.

Simple drawing:


LEDs are mostly drop in replacements for std incandescent bulbs, but polarity is important, as diodes (LED) will only conduct in one direction of current flow. Some new ones will work in either connection, but must specifically state that they are not polarity sensitive. Any std switch will operate an LED, unless it is a dimming switch, which some are designated for LED compatible.

 

[legalfee]

On my boat I didn't replace the bulbs but the whole assembly (360 anchor light and port and starboard lights) with LED. Just make sure the polarity is correct.

 

[3rdMarDiv]

According to the pic you provided, the bulbs are bi-pin, so rotating 180 will change polarity. I believe what you are chasing is a wiring / switch problem, especially since it is a boat over 60 years old. I would bet even money, the wiring has been "repaired" form time to time by a shade tree.

The resistors in the LEDs are voltage drop down resistors so they (2.2 to 4 volts) can be used on 12 VDC systems, All the bulbs should be in parallel, not series. Won't work in series, unless you are making your own very unconventional set up and if in series, if one goes bad, they all go out. Simple Ohms law.

The bow and stern / all around lites are totally independent of each other, except they run off same switch.

Simple drawing:
View attachment 401840

LEDs are mostly drop in replacements for std incandescent bulbs, but polarity is important, as diodes (LED) will only conduct in one direction of current flow. Some new ones will work in either connection, but must specifically state that they are not polarity sensitive. Any std switch will operate an LED, unless it is a dimming switch, which some are designated for LED compatible.

YUP, that is correct. The next bulb, even the old incandescent, won't work when forward in the chain. Little by little I'm absorbing the concept from from what you gentlemen are saying here.

After reading Dingbat's thread I think he is suggesting incorporating a DC DC Buck Step Down Converter. Unless I'm misunderstanding, which, could likely be the case..LOL

But, from these threads I'm also gathering that in any case I may need to address the series vs parallel issue and go with parallel. I'm guessing though that Dingbat might be saying that with the step down converter I could stay with series as he did not recommend going only parallel?

I see the utility of the Step Down as that would allow for providing only the required voltage needed, reducing heat and increasing longevity of the LED.

And YUP there has been modifications over the years resulting in excess wiring, different connectors, splicing in tucked away locations..LOL

"One" switch does control all interior deck lights where LED lights are along the interior sides and up under dash areas shinning down with the lights combination lighting up the inside of the boat really well.

I need to trace those wires to see how they are configured.

I'll take some picks today and U/L them. First I need to make and post results of my cylinder compression numbers on another thread.

As always, thanks to everyone for the higher education experience..LOL

 

[3rdMarDiv]

On my boat I didn't replace the bulbs but the whole assembly (360 anchor light and port and starboard lights) with LED. Just make sure the polarity is correct.

Yea, that is one conclusion I'm looking at. Just go all in and rewire it all as even the LED's that are there and working well are older style LED's. I've had the boat a decade and all interior lights are LED that work well (for now) and the the front NAV lights and rear anchor light were still the old bayonet incandescent lights. Great deal of good reason to just do the job right yourself, creating your own wiring diagram and eliminating the balls of wiring confusion.

If I continue to do patch work I'm just adding to mouse nest that's there now.

You are on the money with this recommendation.

Sounds like a great Michigan winter project...!

 

[tpenfield]

1142 Ba15d Led Bulb White, Low Voltage 12V 1004 1076 1130 1142 1176 LED Light Bulb, 5w Double Contact Bayonet Waterproof 6000K, Equivalent 35W, For Rv Trailer, Camper, Marine are the ones I ordered...​

Trying to replace the front and rear NAV lights on a 1959 MFG Tri-Hull that are wired in series using the old style 2 prong plug in and twist to lock in bulbs.

Got a 2 pack of these LED's to replace front and rear NAV lights. The front had one incandescent and the stern had one. When I flip the NAV switch both the front and rear came on.

When I replaced the old rear one with a led, it worked. Then I replaced the front light and neither worked.

When I put the old incandescent back in the front the rear worked again.

If I put the LED back in the front and and put the old incandescent into the rear, the front will work with the LED installed.

In both cases the incandescent bulbs won't work with the LED installed into the other (both) sockets.

Just guessing here, but it seems the LED lights want their own circuit an don't want to be wired in series.

I'm thinking the LED lights are allowing the negative feed wire to be used but not the positive wire?

I thought I could just buy 2 bulbs and replace the old ones, but thats not happening...LOL

Any assistance will be appreciated.

Sorry to be late to the party, but . . .

It sounds like the navigation lights are wired in series when they should be wired in parallel. (I believe this was touched upon)

Each light should be getting 12volts from the switch.

Perhaps the wiring was changed by a previous owner of the boat?

To check this, put 2 working incandescent bulbs in the nav lights and check the voltage at each. If you are getting about 6 volts across each light bulb, then it would indicate the bulb/sockets are wired in series (and they should not be)

 

[3rdMarDiv]

According to the pic you provided, the bulbs are bi-pin, so rotating 180 will change polarity. I believe what you are chasing is a wiring / switch problem, especially since it is a boat over 60 years old. I would bet even money, the wiring has been "repaired" form time to time by a shade tree.

The resistors in the LEDs are voltage drop down resistors so they (2.2 to 4 volts) can be used on 12 VDC systems, All the bulbs should be in parallel, not series. Won't work in series, unless you are making your own very unconventional set up and if in series, if one goes bad, they all go out. Simple Ohms law.

The bow and stern / all around lites are totally independent of each other, except they run off same switch.

Simple drawing:
View attachment 401840

LEDs are mostly drop in replacements for std incandescent bulbs, but polarity is important, as diodes (LED) will only conduct in one direction of current flow. Some new ones will work in either connection, but must specifically state that they are not polarity sensitive. Any std switch will operate an LED, unless it is a dimming switch, which some are designated for LED compatible.

Thanks for the info and picture. I'm getting to where I believe I might be starting to understand what you and others are saying about the polarity and series vs parallel.



I only have 2 bulbs so I will trace the wires and should only need to split off one, which, should be the anchor light. Looks like 2 trunk lines need to ran that maintain voltage along the full length with bulb power wires ran off and from those. I'm thinking that the two wires will terminate at the front NAV light.

Thanks again

 

[3rdMarDiv]

Sorry to be late to the party, but . . .

It sounds like the navigation lights are wired in series when they should be wired in parallel. (I believe this was touched upon)

Each light should be getting 12volts from the switch.

Perhaps the wiring was changed by a previous owner of the boat?

To check this, put 2 working incandescent bulbs in the nav lights and check the voltage at each. If you are getting about 6 volts across each light bulb, then it would indicate the bulb/sockets are wired in series (and they should not be)

I'll be checking that today and will bet your on the money about the 6v. Also will make a physical inspection.

Thanks much