Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Ralph 123

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Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Here's one more, just for completeness sake:<br /><br />Germany and France are the new sick men of Europe<br />With paralysis following the German election, the EU's claim to be the world's leading economy looks increasingly absurd<br /><br />Timothy Garton Ash<br />Thursday September 22, 2005<br /><br />Guardian<br /><br />The Indian restaurant owner in Berlin said this kind of post-election confusion was quite normal where he came from. The politicians would sort it out eventually and form some kind of coalition government, he reassured the German television reporter. His smile implied: relax, and have another drink. "Well, that's interesting ... Indian conditions!" commented the fiercely competent German studio anchor, with unconscious ethnic condescension. And her tone implied: have we really sunk so low? Indian conditions, here, in Germany?<br />To which I would say: "If only..." If only Germany had anything like the economic dynamism of the world's largest democracy - a democracy, incidentally, slightly older than that of the Federal Republic of Germany. Just to remind you, India's growth rate over the past 12 months was 7%, while Germany's was 0.6%.<br /><br />The result of the German election - if one can call it a result - will not help to close that gap, or address the chronic problems of stagnation and mass unemployment in what is still Europe's largest economy. We are in uncharted territory, with the leaders of both main parliamentary parties, Angela Merkel and Gerhard Schröder, staking their claims to lead a coalition government as federal chancellor. (Schröder has broken with established political precedent, which calls for the leader of the largest parliamentary group to have the first crack at putting together the parliamentary coalition needed to be chancellor.) However, article 63 of the federal republic's meticulously crafted constitution lays out a series of stages by which, over the next couple of months, the parties can, under the general tutelage of the federal president, attempt to form either a coalition government with an absolute majority in parliament or a tolerated minority government. If none of that works, the president can dissolve this hung parliament and call a new election.<br /><br />In my view, that would be much the best outcome. The process will waste six months, but any likely coalition government will waste much longer. Any of the now possible coalitions will be alliances of chalk and cheese, if not of fire and water. They will involve extraordinarily painful compromises on policy. They will be plagued by personality clashes and parties jockeying for position in an election everyone will expect to come sooner rather than later. The results in economic and social policy - and probably in foreign policy - will be more of that soft fudge in which German attempts at reform have been suffocating for more than a decade. This will be bad for Germany, bad for Europe and bad for the world economy.<br /><br />The most likely fudge-factory would be a so-called grand coalition between Social and Christian Democrats. Schröder has said he won't serve under Merkel, nor will Merkel under Schröder, so that (unless they change their tune) a double decapitation would be needed before the grand coalition could even begin. With the parties having diametrically opposed policies in areas such as health-service reform, fudge mountains would be called for.<br /><br />The last time there was a grand coalition, in 1966-69, it prompted a strengthening of the left- and right-wing extremes, since the established mass parties were both in government. Harold James, a distinguished historian of modern Germany, argues that the time before that when Germany had something that might be described as a grand coalition was in 1928-30. This had the disastrous effect, under the impact of the great depression, of sending voters off in herds to the communists and Nazis, hastening the end of the Weimar Republic. If one accepts his interpretation then, it would seem that Germany has an impulse to reach for a grand coalition roughly once every 35 years. But few people are suggesting this one would have anything like the same disastrous consequences. More likely, it would represent an unstable transition period between one reasonably stable coalition government and another, as it did in the 60s. In which case, better to shorten the agony with new elections.<br /><br />There's always a danger of over-interpreting such a result. If Merkel had been a more effective television performer, and her campaign had not been compromised by tax proposals that many Germans found threatening, we might now all be explaining why the Germans had voted for change. Moreover, the party that saw the largest increase in its share of the vote, the Free Democrats, was the one that most clearly favoured free-market economic reforms. None the less, the net effect of this election can be summarised as a nein to the free-market liberalisation for which German business leaders have been pressing.<br /><br />The French communist newspaper L'Humanité crowed that the Germans have shown a red card to neoliberalism. Just as the French did in the referendum that killed Europe's constitutional treaty earlier this year. Nein and non to neo-liberalism, to any radical change to the old "social market economy" that they feel has served them so well; nein and non to innovation, risk, immigration and Turkey's membership of the European Union; nein and non to America, or what they take for America. That is the characteristic Franco-German refrain today.<br /><br />Between them, these two nations central to any version of the European project have achieved one great thing: they have made a war between France and Germany, and hence in western and northern Europe, unthinkable. (I would not be quite so confident about eastern or southern Europe.) And for half a century, France and Germany have together been the motor of European integration. Now, however, the Franco-German motor has become the Franco-German brakes.<br /><br />This election is just one more proof of what we have seen for some time. Instead of the new start hoped for in London, Warsaw and Jose Manuel Barroso's Brussels, with a "black-yellow" coalition between a reforming chancellor in Merkel and the free-marketeering Free Democrats, followed in 2007 by a like-minded French president in Nicolas Sarkozy, we face a further period of stagnation and confusion. The so-called Lisbon agenda of economic reform will continue to be stalled. The EU's always vainglorious claim that it will become the world's most competitive economy by 2010 will look ever more absurd.<br /><br />In these circumstances some, particularly in Britain, will call for European countries with more competitive economies to throw off the Franco- German brakes. Let's go back to a simple single market, they will say, and make our own profitable way in the world. Quite apart from the fact that going back to a single market is far more complicated than it appears, and the unravelling of the European Union would probably not stop there, this is short-sighted advice. In a world of economic giants, with America and Japan already being joined by China and India, dwarves do not have a rosy future.<br /><br />Though Britain, France and Germany are still among the world's largest economies, their comparative growth rates make them at best shrinking giants. Only Europe as a whole has the capacity to hold its own in such a world. So this is no time for schadenfreude. We, their fellow Europeans, need the sick men of Europe to recover almost as much as the French and Germans themselves do.
 

Twidget

Commander
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
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Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

You are sadly misinformed if you think that the European economies are in a mess
Sorry, I just cant let this one go by. My wifes family is German, as in most live in Germany. From what they are saying, Germany is going down quickly. According to them France is in even worse shape.
 

KaGee

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Aug 14, 2004
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Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Originally posted by Twidget:<br />
You are sadly misinformed if you think that the European economies are in a mess
Sorry, I just cant let this one go by. My wifes family is German, as in most live in Germany. From what they are saying, Germany is going down quickly. According to them France is in even worse shape.
I have had the opportunity to be with two individuals this week. One from Belgium, the other from Germany. Met both at two different times, neither really knew each other, yet both virtually said the same things. <br /><br />The reasons are many and at times complex. At the heart of it all is the socialist mentality. It's failing, yet we still, to this day have those who want us here to pursue the same policies that have/are failing misurably in Europe.
 

Boomyal

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
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12,072
Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> Please do not compare socialism to the social democratic party system in europe.Besides,what is so terrible in these countries?The national debt is much smaller than here. Everybody has health insurance and education is free for everybody.
It is pretty pathetic when the supposed 'smartest' amongst us base so much of man's well being on what he gets for 'free'. IMHO, it seems like breakdown in 'critical thinking'.
 

wildbill59

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
395
Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Had a cousin just return from living in Holland for many years. His observations of the "Free Lunch" over there is that the lunch is getting rotten and moldy. The lower birth rate and productivity losses are bringing the system to it's knees much faster than any care to admit. Denial is a terrible thing but some will embrace it to the end.<br /><br />The socialists in Madison, WI want to impose 9 days paid sick days for any employee regardless. Sounds like a free lunch line to me.
 

Twidget

Commander
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Messages
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Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Everybody has health insurance and education is free for everybody.
It is my understanding that with the 'free' education comes a little what some would call discrimination. By the time kids are in what we would call middle school, it is decided whether or not they are intelligent enough to aquire higher education. <br /><br />The education branches there. The 'smart' kids are prepared for college, the 'not so smart' kids are sent a different route. I am glad no one made that decision about me when I was that age.....
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
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Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

So many good points made. So much opinion. <br /><br />
The act continues to have discriminatory effects today by favoring disproportionately white, skilled and unionized construction workers over disproportionately black, unskilled and non-unionized construction workers.
What is wrong with favoring skilled workers over unskilled regardless of color or union-membership?<br /><br />When baby bush lifted the requirement of a decent wage level, he gave another corporate welfare gift. I am sorry to hear the attitude that the work force will be able demand the wage. This whole rebuild will be handled by a few mega-corporations who WILL dictate what wage they will pay. And without wage protection beyond the minimum rage, one of two scenarios will occur. Either skilled workers from the area who stayed will take any work available, and maybe demand a "higher" wage, undoubtedly lower than the market rate in a non-affected area. Or the mega-corp will simply hire the cheapest labor possible, skilled or not, and then we'll see what quality work is done.<br />Regardless, the wage winners will be the big companies handling the rebuilding efforts. Just another corporate America welfare project. Shame on baby bush.
 

BoatBuoy

Rear Admiral
Joined
May 29, 2004
Messages
4,856
Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Seems this is a moot argument. Heard on the news tonight there is a shortage of workers in NO. It seems workers are demanding, and getting $10-$12 per hour. Since workers are in short supply, Latinos are filling some of the voids.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

When baby bush lifted the requirement of a decent wage level, he gave another corporate welfare gift. I am sorry to hear the attitude that the work force will be able demand the wage. This whole rebuild will be handled by a few mega-corporations who WILL dictate what wage they will pay. And without wage protection beyond the minimum rage, one of two scenarios will occur. Either skilled workers from the area who stayed will take any work available, and maybe demand a "higher" wage, undoubtedly lower than the market rate in a non-affected area. Or the mega-corp will simply hire the cheapest labor possible, skilled or not, and then we'll see what quality work is done.<br />Regardless, the wage winners will be the big companies handling the rebuilding efforts. Just another corporate America welfare project. Shame on baby bush.
Get ovwer the hate and conspiracy mongering. It is President Bush. As much as I despised President Clinton, I still addressed him properly.<br /><br />Trying to defend an old bill that favored segregation is very telling.
 

mattttt25

Commander
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Sep 29, 2002
Messages
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Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

since when did davis-bacon rates mean union? they don't. davis-bacon sets a prevailing wage. unions set their own wages, usually higher than the davis-bacon rates. many of you are confusing the two. similiar concepts, but not the same.<br /><br />federal work demands davis-bacon rates for all workers, regardless of whether they are union or open shop.<br /><br />until the unions and open shops realize they are fighting for the same thing, the construction industry will always have its labor disputes.
 

jimonica

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
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Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Stop calling him "Baby Bush"! Its Governor Bush since that is the last election he won!
 

alden135

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
1,770
Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Originally posted by BoatBuoy:<br /> Seems this is a moot argument. Heard on the news tonight there is a shortage of workers in NO. It seems workers are demanding, and getting $10-$12 per hour. Since workers are in short supply, Latinos are filling some of the voids.
I must be freekin psycic :D
 

lakelivin

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Aug 19, 2004
Messages
1,172
Re: Potential wage cuts for rebuilding workers.

Ralph, a couple of quotes of yours from above:<br /><br />"The market determines wages. That's the way our economic system works."<br /><br />"Why do so many Union people have such little faith in the themselves and the free market to earn based upon their skills and talents? Why do they feel like they need big brother to protect them and tell them what they are worth?"<br /><br />I agree with you (as long as there as there no kinks/ inequities in a particular section of the free market system). <br /><br />What are your thoughts on government non-competitive bid contract awards in a free market system? e.g., each of your quotes above could be changed to reflect similar principles w.r.t. the roles of corportaions in a free market system rather than workers. <br /><br />Just curious as to your thoughts from that perspective...
 
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