Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

[ebbtide176]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

JB i thought about this alot today. i concede the point you made after my orig stmt. a very good point. i didn't want to give up on this topic, but your point about the legality & the strict interpretation of our constitution made good sense.<br /><br />now, because i can only hope(jealously) to keep our same principles, i wonder about a couple of other points:<br />- is agnostic not a religion (like clinton's famous "define what 'is' is") <br />- if strict interpretation prevails, then i can accept the removal of "under God" but don't bother me on the "right to bare arms" any longer <br /><br />now i doubt you have a prob with the 2nd amdmt, but it makes me really feel more inclined to fight further changes to our constitution when this kind of strict interpretation is the norm...<br /><br />i'm still trying to catch up on this political science stuff

 

[QC]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

jtex,<br /><br />Yeah, the word revisionist was probably a poor choice considering that it has been revised . . . I was thinking in more of a macro sense than specifically about the Pledge. My bad.<br /><br />I stand by what I posted though. The attempt to wipe out all references to God in public places is wrong. It is part of our history and part of what defined how we run the greatest country on earth. That scares a lot of people, but it is factual and historical and considered right by some guys who figured this gov't stuff out better than anyone before or since. Period. No exceptions. In my opinion that connection should be acknowledged and taught to our kids.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure I don't want prayer in school and I have said before that I rarely go to church, but the rules are pretty darn good and they stem from religion . . i.e. God. This should not be forgotten or eliminated.

 

[waterone1@aol.com]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

For everyone talking about our freedom FROM religion, or the seperation of Church and state....it does not exist (according to the constitution). It is the freedom OF religion !<br />The freedom from A state sponsored religion is true. What single religion say's that they OWN GOD ?<br />Just for a moment, let's say that only the Catholics believed in a supreme being known as Newtwon, and the government would only grant tax exempt status to the church of Newtwon,and furthermore, the teachings and history of Newtwon was the only story in school text books and the public schools said that you had to pledge your trust to Newtwon....that would be wrong. <br />However several, if not most religions in the U.S. believe in GOD or some variation of God, so to tell our kids to pledge to God, is not the endorsement of a single religion sponsored by the state. Most religions enjoy tax exempt status and their story is told and taught in our schools. There is no single state sponsored religion that our law makers represent that is forced to our young, therefore the words"in God we trust" is not a state sponsored religion.

 

[JB]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

ebb.<br /><br />"Is agnostic a religion?" I wouldn't think so, as religion is about beliefs and faith. Agnosticism is about doubt, but it is a position about religion and deserves the same freedoms and restraints as organized religion. Just my view.<br /><br />That, of course, leads to the same question about atheism, which I think is defined as a belief that there is no "God" as an entity, or an absence of religion. Not many atheists admit to it because of the evangelistic imperative in many Christians who aggressively seek to "save" them.<br /><br />I have no idea how one would "practice" atheism, but it seems to me they deserve the same rights as the devout.

 

[Tyme2fish]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Originally posted by David L. Moore:<br /> I say, if you don't like it, DON'T SAY IT!!!! But don't prohibit me from saying it, as I BELIEVE IN GOD!!! It's that simple. Next we won't have Thanksgiving. Try taking away Christmas and Christmas vacation, soo how far that goes. Oh right, the will/interest of the many does not matter, it's the one screwball with the ego to massage that the bleeding hearts will side with.<br /><br />I say keep government in big business (regulations and controls to a point to protect the average consumer) and get government out of my (personal) business.<br /><br />No where in the constitution did it ban or prohibit religion, it prohibited ONE government sponsored religion. We need some judges who actually read the constitution!

Already been done. We no longer have Christmas break at our local school system, instead it's "Winter Break"

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

It scares me how quickly we can abandon our history and prioritize our values based on politics. <br /><br />This country was founded on LIMITED government. We now need to feed, house, educate, and generally support everyone, citizen or not, based on the values of the politically powerful. Removal of god from the political lexicon may make some "feel" better but it is in no way intrusive to the lives of anyone. Reciting the pledge is optional. Recognizing that god played a major role in the formation of this country may offend some but in no way constitutes state sponsored religion and accurately reflects our past. If this offends some that is really pathetic. It is the formation of this country that allows them to be offended. A large number of countries would put them to death for even thinking along these lines.<br /><br />I could care less what they decide. It is a twisting of the law that we end up with these dilema's. I fear that the removal of the recognition of a high being leaves us with the government to be its replacement. Creepy stuff. History shows that the first step most tyrants take is to remove god from their environment. Lenin, Marx, both knew that "god" was a threat to their designs. They did their best to remove it from their society. <br /><br />As long as there is a recognized authority higher than the government, I will support it. I believe that is the intention of the founding fathers and what we have now is the downward spiral into socialism (we are already there) and that is what should really offend the people here. We have given the government a greater authority over our lives than the originators would have ever allowed, and it gets worse every day. God is just a symbol of what has been lost in the transformation.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Here is the constituion:<br /><br />Amendment I<br />Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.<br /><br />My Opinion-<br />Including the words "under god" in our pledge does not make mandatory every citizen become a Christian. It does not require you to go to church. It does not require you to follow the church rules. It merely states that most US citizens believe the USA is a nation "under god".<br /><br />The intent of the first amendment is to prevent the government from requiring people to go to the state run church. Remember England???? Remember the pilgrims???? They were all forced to go to church.<br /><br />That is all the first amendment guarantees, nothing more.<br /><br />Ken

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

well, it seems the change will fail, it looks like there are 2 bills going thru house & senate now - to keep it as is, respecting the heritage of this country. whew good deal<br /><br />i know some of our heritage was rethought (slavery, womens rights) but at least we get to keep this acknowlegment

 

[JB]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

I watched about every minute of the Senate confirmation hearing regarding Judge John Roberts.<br /><br />There were many interesting exchanges about values, heart and the law.<br /><br />One witness, a professor from a Theological University was asked about what she thought of the 9th Circuit decision, "In God We Trust" on our currency, and references to God in other Government related rituals and forms.<br /><br />Here reply was that she didn't think the government had any business making religious references. She said that there should be a firm wall between church and state, and that Thomas Jefferson's response to the same issue was, "God doesn't need your help."

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

JB,<br /><br />Jefferson is always quoted when this issue comes up. He is but one of the authors and framers of the constitution. Funny she didn't quote Washington, Franklin or Adams. But you can see how we will begin to see the elevation of the importance of Jefferson on American history based on this one issue. Skewed logic. Could you supply this witnesses name/credentials? They commonly selectively choose their experts based on known responses. <br /><br />I find it troubling that someones heart and values need to be examined when looking for the best candidate to interperate the law that is written. Based on that standard nobody could be confirmed. The standard is so subjective as to be meaningless. It also provides cover for those who chooses to vote for political rather than legal reason. Having watched the entire procedings can you find any reason someone would not vote for Roberts? Someones actions/history are a far better yardstick than some kind of arbitrary appreciation for the meaning of illegal amigo's or their resistance to describe it as anything but a joke.<br /><br /><br />President George Washington, September 17th, 1796:<br /> "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"<br /><br />Patrick Henry: <br />"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations."<br /><br />Benjamin Franklin Address at the Constitutional Convention Thursday June 28, 1787:<br />"I have lived, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?<br /><br />President John Adams:<br />"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

 

[jtexas]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Would it surprise anyone to learn that Benjamin Franklin's motion to begin each day's meeting of the 1787 Constitutional Convention was voted down?

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Originally posted by KenImpZoom:<br /> That is all the first amendment guarantees, nothing more.

Ken, c'mon now. That arguement is fine when it supports your position, but have you ever actually put any thought into the ramifications of using only the literal definitions in the Constitution?<br /><br />I'll be honest, I never thought about it until college. Political Science course, to be exact, in which we read the Constitution word-for-word. We examined each section and discussed the literal and implied meanings. To say we "went over" the Constitution would be an understatement, we REALLY went over the Constitution, from front to back and everything in between.<br /><br />In reality, the Constitution is a very simplistic, limiting document. It gives a basic outline, and nothing more. On it's own, it would make a poor basis for government and law. On it's own, it could not stand, it NEEDS further interpretation and support.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

I dont take it literally, but I take it as to what was on their minds when they were writing the constitution.<br /><br />They were thinking... hmmmm... I really didn't like it when the British government made me go to church.<br /><br />They were not thinking, we need to totally remove every speck of religion out of everything the government does.<br /><br />Ken

 

[JB]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

I don't think they selected witnesses based on what they wanted to hear. Witnesses testified passionately on both sides of every issue.<br /><br />I thought it was interesting (and surprizing!!)because this woman, Ph.D in Theology, etc, and a professor at a theological Seminary/University took such a position. I agree that the quote from Jefferson has no more importance than a quote from DJ or KIZ, but it does offer counterpoint to them.<br /><br />There seems no chance that the media would include her in their sound bites and I didn't write down her credentials, etc. I think her school is in Chicago.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Dadgum it, MY QUOTE IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN HERS!!!!!!!<br /><br /> <br /><br />Ken

 

[jtexas]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Originally posted by jtexas:<br /> Would it surprise anyone to learn that Benjamin Franklin's motion to begin each day's meeting of the 1787 Constitutional Convention was voted down?

...with a prayer...<br /><br />it was supposed to read <br /><br />Would it surprise anyone to learn that Benjamin Franklin's motion to begin each day's meeting of the 1787 Constitutional Convention with a prayer was voted down?

 

[Homerr]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Hey I know.. let's come up with a new pledge of allegence:<br /><br />"One nation under Guyia, with Feelings and Sensitivity for all"<br /><br /><br />??<br /><br /> <br /><br />H.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

Originally posted by Homerr:<br /> Hey I know.. let's come up with a new pledge of allegence:<br /><br />"One nation under Guyia, with Feelings and Sensitivity for all"<br /><br /><br />??<br /><br /> <br /><br />H.

I suggest we substitute "One naked individual"

 

[KRS]

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional !!!

I suggest we all move along and find something else to banter about.