Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? Update

gaugeguy · Feb 27, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Our scout pack has a derby for the kids and the fathers. This encourages the kiddos to do a bunch more work on their own cars as opposed to having Dad do all of it. Last year I took first and my son took second. This year I have two boys in the competition. I've seen all the tips already that I use...graphite, polish the axles and wheels, I drill out the underside of the car and weight it with lead, I use a thin "wedge" style car, and make sure the car rolls straight not tracking to the left or right. Good Luck.

gewf631 · Feb 28, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Simple modifications Angle the wheels In the automotive world, this is called Negative Camber - it allows the wheels to run against the nail head, and not against the block. 3 wheels on the track (not 4) Mount one of the front wheels so it's not supporting the car - 3 wheels have less friction than 4 Polish the nail and remove any burrs Got to get rid of those burrs on the nail, and while you're at-it, use emory cloth to polish the nail shaft. Afterwards, use a lot of graphite and spin the nail, with the wheel, in a drill - not too fast/long to melt the wheel, but the more you can mate the wheel and nail, and run-in that graphite, the better. Aerodynamics Not a major factor - a basic wedge is fine, but don't get too hung-up on this (there just ain't enough surface area to effect the car significantly) Weight Just bring some change with you for the official weigh-in. Might not look pretty, but they're very easy to tape to the top of the car to get you to that right weight. Harder Angle the nail head The more you can make that nail head look like a funnel, the smaller the surface that will be adding friction to the spinning wheel. Depending on the restrictions your pack places, this might be illegal, but it's pretty difficult to see if you do it correctly. When they were young, I always did the basic car, then let the boys have at-it with decals, model paint, etc., so they had a hand in making-it. As they get older, you can let them do the sanding and such, or even basic stuff with hand tools. Our Pack keeps it fun, by making sure all the boys get something (they setup a printer with some certificate paper, and hand out awards for everything from the wettest paint job, to the most creative use of stickers). They do this after the winners are determined, so no one gets more than one award.

WillyBWright · Feb 28, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

I don't have the rules handy. Can we glue washers inside the wheels to give them more mass? Our track has a long flat that might make that inertia beneficial. Is there a height restriction? We were thinking of a vertical vane the length of the car to help keep it going straight.

chuckz · Feb 28, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Don't put weight in the wheels, it will make the car accelerate very slowly. If you have a long flat section, you want most of the weight in the rear of the car. That way the car continues to accelerate longer. The point of balance should be about 1/4" in front of the rear axel. This give you maximum acceleration, on a track with a run out, and keeps the front wheels from floating. Polish the axels and run in the car. Graphite particles have sharp edges. Running in the car rounds off the edges. I ran in the car on my belt sander with the belt removed. From the pack through the district races, the car was NEVER beat. The district races were a hoot. The pack leaders were all very good with the boys at the pack races. They lost their objectivity at the District level. The excitement level was unbelievable.

LubeDude · Feb 28, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

If its legal, take a dremel tool and hogout the area inside the axle area of the wheels so that there is only a very slight area that actually touches the axle both inside and outside. I like the three wheel idea also,and the epoxy next to the body. Im thinking that teflon may be a better lube, but you want true teflon and not a teflon with oil in it.

OLDSPUD · Feb 28, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Hey, all these Ideas are correct, 'cept I could argue over the wieght location. You want a three wheeler, ny natural three wheelers were always a little faster. the weight must be balanced, most in rear, enough on front end to hold to the track. Polish axles, pretty important. You can buy all this from Hodges. He has cars pre drilled for weight location, also has relocated wheels to make a longer wheel base, you can also get matched polished axels to wheels, he also has slightly lathed wheels to a point, so the car runs on a point of the wheel they are called speed wheels, then he has a detailed book on how to put the car together, weight locatiion, polishing instructions bla bla bla. I usually put the weights in the car, (until car weighs about 4.8 oz including wheels and axels), then let my son, (or whoever is suppose to make the car) shape the car paint it, decal it or whatever they want, then I take over and do the rest and put it in a box so NO one touches it. I can make a car in a couple days. I've done cars for employees kids, my sons, my nephews, and my daughter (she raced once and of course won) Its darn competetive around here, and the kids want to win, I know about all the feel good stuff about everyone being a winner, but a winner is a winner, and its fun to win. I found out about Hodges long before the interenet, and have been using his stuff for years, I have parents calling me and asking how to build cars, I usually tell them I will help, but I have never revealed the secret of Hodges until the last few years, my youngest son is now 12. I promise you cannot lose if you follow his instructions. My cars have been timed and compared to local and state winners. My cars always KA. Its a lot of fun. Spud

LubeDude · Feb 28, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Why do we keep score, we only end up hurting someones feelings. I mean someone is going to lose and go home unhappy. Dont you have any compasion for these little ones, I say no more tag, no more dodgeball, not more keeping score in any game. We are only damaging these little minds. I say we should give all kids deplomas when they leave school after twelve years, they only have to be actually in class for half of those years, Shoot, they dont even have to speak english. They should get a doctor of science when they go through college four four years, and they can be a brain surgon or a lawyer or whatever. We dont need competition. With that said, let the kids build the cars and run them down a dark tube to the end, when they stop, open the other end and hand the kids there cars and say, "AWESOME, GREAT JOB, YOUR CAR MADE IT TO THE END." Give them a big blue ribbon and send all the winners home.

OLDSPUD · Feb 28, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

sorry bud, always have been competetive, my kids are just like me. I coach basketball and have coached for years. Every year my kids want to win, most not-so- talented players would rather win than play. I guess its just life here in the competetive, (evil capitalistic) USA. Could always live in Canada or somewhere else where socialism rules, no winners or losers.

LubeDude · Mar 1, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Originally posted by spudbartlett: sorry bud, always have been competetive, my kids are just like me.

Surely you must have known I was on a Rant??? Sorry for calling you sherly.

OLDSPUD · Mar 1, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

I was wondering

LubeDude · Mar 1, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Oh, and lets have a Bass tounament where we dont weight the Bass when we come in and everyone gets a trophy

And we wont keep score at the Super Bowl either or any other sporting event. We will just flip a coin to see who goes to the Super Bowl, waite, we cant do that, someone would lose the toss

OK, no more sports of anykind.

Hey no more elections either, someone has to lose there also

Well, there goes the country

The people that dont want our kids to compete are out of there minds. Has to be a Liberal thing

Knowone else is that stupid! Im on a roll now. Must have been something I ate.

Hey, who else could go from little cars to politics???

gewf631 · Mar 1, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Yea, and set-em-up so that when they get older, and don't get their way, they plot to have a Judge killed, like Matthew Hale It was a plot line straight out of a crime novel: A self-pronounced white supremacist unhappy with a court ruling hatches a scheme to kill the judge who handed it down. During Hale's trial, prosecutors contended that Hale was furious when Lefkow ordered him to stop using the name World Church of the Creator because it had been trademarked by an Oregon-based religious group with no ties to Hale. Give kids a chance to learn the basics, enjoy the game, and develop their skills before we start teaching them that winning is everything. They're competitive-enough without parents forcing it on them.

WillyBWright · Mar 1, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

What do you think about cutting shallow threads into the wheel? My thinking is that it would decrease the surface area and allow a space for lubricant. I drilled axle holes with a drill press so that the wheels are at the maximum length of the car, one slightly high. I drilled them square with about a 2* negative camber. We have three sets of wheels now to play with and have 4 pretty good ones. I'm thinking of chucking them in the drill press and doing some truing. (I have a lathe we could use, but we're not using that. We're only using your average home shop stuff.) This is one I didn't see anywhere. I heat treated the axles. I used a propane torch and heated them to where they barely glowed in the dark and quenched them in olive oil. The surface looks good and the plating doesn't seem to be peeling. I have no idea if this is good, bad, or indifferent, but ... We're having a lot of fun with this. Especially in doing the fine tuning. He keeps reminding me that he's finished a very close 4th place twice now. Certainly respectable, but out of the money.

chuckz · Mar 2, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Threading the axels holes is a speed tip I've used. Also coning the end of the hub where it meets the car body minimizies the friction. Cut a little off the outside rim of the wheel so only the cone can touch. Thin the tread surface of the wheeel from the inside outside. Anything that lightens the wheel makes it faster. Be advised that some competitions limit how much you can modify the wheels. I forgot to mention to polish the bore with a pipe cleaner and graphite after you thread it.

Stratosfied · Mar 2, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

edit, sorry stupid, very stupid question.

SCO · Mar 2, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

My read was that you cant mod the wheels. Coning at the axles sounds ok though, never did that. Thin wedges seem to work the best, square front for stable and square release. Bore from the rear to place cylindrical weights. cg weight maybe 1 inch fwd of rear axle in our experience(ill check the best car of all time tonight), ive seen em doing wheelies as they gain speed if youve gone too far aft with the weight. You can lift one front wheel a little more and run on three...always did this, we did the angled axles, just enough to get the wheels to go to the hubs and away from the body. That angling also causes the car to roll on the inside rims of the tires only. We always used the stock axle locations and slots, and put the rear axle on the axle slot that is nearest to the wood block end. We only ground the axles once, usually just knocked off flashing at the nail heads and looked under mag glass to make sure regular and smooth. Get two kits so you have spare axles and wheels, reject bad ones. We won more than any in our packs history. Not only us, but our den mates also won multiple times. Shared technology. Originally we got these tips from a google search on our second year. The first year got killed focusing on aerodynamics. Second year we won overall pack and third in regionals. We were the only ones in the den to utilize the tips that second year. The third and forth years our den won the overall first second and third, and we also won the region one year. Surprizingly, one fast car did not track straight in test rolls...probably bounced once or so and rolled a smooth arc...never figured that one out. Always check spin the wheels, they should all roll freely. Use a good scale(we had an old high school chemistry scale) to get right up there to the 5oz max, but plan for a way to remove weight if their scale is off. With these tips, your car will be fast, but to be first can vary with the same cars run on the same track three times in a row. Start angle and luck of the bouncing has a lot to do with it. Use just enough of the lubricant to act as imagined ball bearings. Good luck

WillyBWright · Mar 5, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Update: He won 1st in his Den and 3rd in the Pack. He raced the winner a bunch of times and some of them were too close to call. Those had to be rerun. My son's won once for sure and once on a split decision, but missed first place by one race. His and the winner were within an inch on most runs. It's amazing how exciting 3 seconds can get. He never actually got to race the 2nd place winner, but I think ours was faster. He'll get his picture in the paper, but won't be able to go on to Regionals because he transitioned to Boy Scouts two weeks ago at the Blue/Gold. But he was happy with the results anyhow. Center of Gravity is close to the middle. We weighted it to 4.995oz on our electronic scale with a small brass screw we could take out if the Pack scale showed a tad high. It read 5.000. A few last minute improvements included a mixture of Silicone Spray and Graphite applied to the axles and allowed to dry overnight before assembling with copious amounts of powdered graphite. Same thing went on the wheels where they ride on the inside and on the nail head. We also chucked them in the drill press and filed the edges smooth and very-slightly concaved the tread area. Then we pressed the assemblies into the pre-drilled holes with the drill press rather than knock out all the graphite by hitting them with a hammer. Fun was had by all and we thank-you all for your contributions. Couldn't have done it without you.

Laddies · Mar 5, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Good deal Willy

one more cast · Mar 5, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

as the Duke boys would say.... YEEE HAWWW

Twidget · Mar 5, 2005

Re: Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

Congratulations!!! All your hard work paid off.

Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? ***Update***

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Pinewood Derby. Any secrets? Update