Pin-Hole water leaks!

[levittownnick]

Over the period of about 1 year, I have had 3 pin hole water leaks in my cold water line. The hole's are so small that you have to look carefully to see the fine spray of water. These leaks appear to have been located at random points in the copper tubing lines (not at or near the "sweat" joints). When the water is shut off, I don't even see the hole so I have to mark it while it is pressurized. What is causing these leaks? (The system is about 25 years old.)

Thank you,
Nick

 

[rbh]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Copper tubing does not last for ever, the water that flows through it contains minerals that build up over time and can and will eat through it.

 

[bigdee]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

This has been an on going problem at my in-laws house. Pipes were getting pinholes every 5 or 6 years. Fought this for 30 years until re-plumbed with something else. Thank heavens for PEX....I have fallen in love with this stuff!

 

[dingbat]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

What is the ph of your water? Do you get any "green" staining in your fixtures?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Copper tubing does not last for ever, the water that flows through it contains minerals that build up over time and can and will eat through it.

Mineral build up protects the pipes. I would more suspect either a low pH or a low total dissolved solid level OR a combination of both. Also cannot rule out defective copper plumbing. I do not know if there were ever substandard copper pipes as there was a rash of cheap Chinese iron pipes, some years back.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Well there are two grades of copper pipes L & M

M is standard thin and L is thicker (Actually can be used underground. I am willing to bet you have the thinner version M (Google it) When I re-plumbed my home 25 years ago I was talked into using L by a plumber even though I did it myself.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Well there are two grades of copper pipes L & M

M is standard thin and L is thicker (Actually can be used underground. I am willing to bet you have the thinner version M (Google it) When I re-plumbed my home 25 years ago I was talked into using L by a plumber even though I did it myself.

While not a bad idea, type L tubing only postpones the enviable. Copper is resistive to most chemicals but will not tolerate a low ph. Fix the problem and type M will out last the home.

Maryland is notorious for acidic soil and water. In our case, we installed a water neutralizer when we built the house 24 years ago. No issues. Neighbors didn't install neutralizer and had to replace their plumbing after 12 years.

 

[agallant80]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

I would just start to replace with PEX. Its great stuff and really easy to work with. With that said I did get one leak in my PEX plumbing once.

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Nick,
Been there done that. Check your electrical panel ground. Is it grounded to your main water line? It should be. It's very possible it's electrolysis causing your pinhole leaks, not any type of minerals. I had the same issue many years ago. I had no ground rod nor was my panel tied to the main water line coming in. Added a ground rod, and a #6 bare copper wire to the water line and panel and have never had another pinhole since.

If you have a high quality electrical meter, check your copper piping for any stray current. There should be 0.

 

[bigdee]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Doesn't matter, they need to be replaced.

Agree. Those metal elements leaching into your potable water are bad for your health. PEX is the better solution.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Happy New Year to ALL.
Thanks for the replies.
The copper tubing is type L and the electrical system does use the water pipe to ground the system. I will try to have the PH of the water checked, I have no idea what it is or what it should be.
I will be "Goggling" PEX as I am not familiar with that material.

Again, I sincerely thank all the participants, I knew that I came to the right place for information.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Nick

 

[dockwrecker]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Nick,
Been there done that. Check your electrical panel ground. Is it grounded to your main water line? It should be. It's very possible it's electrolysis causing your pinhole leaks, not any type of minerals. I had the same issue many years ago. I had no ground rod nor was my panel tied to the main water line coming in. Added a ground rod, and a #6 bare copper wire to the water line and panel and have never had another pinhole since.

If you have a high quality electrical meter, check your copper piping for any stray current. There should be 0.

Agree with this. Also make sure that the copper pipe isn't connected to any galvanized pipe without isolation by a dialectric coupler. Copper to galvanized destroys both in short order.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Happy New Year to ALL.
Thanks for the replies.
The copper tubing is type L and the electrical system does use the water pipe to ground the system. I will try to have the PH of the water checked, I have no idea what it is or what it should be.
I will be "Goggling" PEX as I am not familiar with that material.

Again, I sincerely thank all the participants, I knew that I came to the right place for information.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Nick

As well as the pH, have the TDS measured (total dissolved solids). Your pH should be neutral or better (7 pH) and your TDS should be 100 ppm or better. Any combination of low numbers, both pH and TDS will allow your water to eat at the copper. Another thing that people do not realize is that copper pipe has a seam running the length of it. These seam and the relatively soft solder, at joints, are the places that aggressive water attacks first.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Another thing that people do not realize is that copper pipe has a seam running the length of it.

ASTM D88 Type L and Type M copper tubing is drawn......it's seamless

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Since we (most of us) experienced a good Polar Vortex a few things have come to mind and one real stupid observation.

I have thawed many pipes in my day (it's a skill you are required to have in VT). A hole as small as 1/8" in a foundation will permit enough cold to freeze a pipe. I have used jumper cables and a 12V source (Battery of a good charger) to thaw pipes and hair dryers, along with propane torch methods. I wonder if some plumber tried or used that "jumper" method on your pipes? I see you have a Levittown house and I know that MANY of them do not have a basement (Yeah I grew up on LI so I am familiar with Levitt homes).

If the "jumper method" is used the wrong way.....it can cause a pin hole. A quick permanent fix is to coat the pipe in that area with PC-11 epoxy and don't worry about it. I just do not think the LI water has the PH to hurt anything...... Or go with PEX which is also great.

No here is a recent screw-up I heard about........ Someone rented a house and the pipes froze. When the plumber went into the basement to thaw them it was discovered........ The homeowner had spray in insulation added to the basement.....The pipes were entirely coated!! There was no way to use a torch, hair dryer or the "jumper method".

Just FYI I have the foam pipe insulation on my own pipes but it is removable.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

I just do not think the LI water has the PH to hurt anything......

LONG ISLAND GROUNDWATER

The water is quite pure with about 50 mg/liter, or 50 ppm, of total dissolved solids, TDS. The water is, however, quite acid with a pH of 4.4 to 6.1, similar to that of the precipitation. As a result the water is quite corrosive. Due to the inert character of the minerals making up the aquifer, dominantly quartz sand, neither the concentration of TDS nor pH changes appreciably as the water travels through the aquifers.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

LONG ISLAND GROUNDWATER

The water is quite pure with about 50 mg/liter, or 50 ppm, of total dissolved solids, TDS. The water is, however, quite acid with a pH of 4.4 to 6.1, similar to that of the precipitation. As a result the water is quite corrosive. Due to the inert character of the minerals making up the aquifer, dominantly quartz sand, neither the concentration of TDS nor pH changes appreciably as the water travels through the aquifers.

If the pH is that low, I am surprised that the copper pipes have lasted as long as they have. The pH scale is geometric not linear, so each 1/10th drop in the pH is a huge jump. Combine the 4.4 to 6.1 pH with the relatively low buffered state (50 ppm TDS) and you've got some hellaciously aggressive water.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

Happy New Year to ALL.
Thanks for the replies.
The copper tubing is type L and the electrical system does use the water pipe to ground the system. I will try to have the PH of the water checked, I have no idea what it is or what it should be.

If you are on municipal water, the water department should have continuous records of water chemistry readings.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: Pin-Hole water leaks!

If you are on municipal water, the water department should have continuous records of water chemistry readings.

I contacted the water department and they were very responsive. They visited my house the next day and called my wife with there results. They said that they don't know why the pH is so high and that they would make adjustment in the water supply.

I have ordered some litmus paper and I intend to sample the pH just for peace of mind.

Thanks to all,
Nick