Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

Hooty

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How do you determine what size orfice to use for different size(CDI)engines. Obviously a small orfice for a small engine larger for a larger engine. Any formula?<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

ODDD1

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

hooty, stop over at screamandfly.com this subject was just covered....
 

Hooty

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

Thanks ODDD1,<br />I've been kinda keeping up with that over there too but I haven't seen where anyone has talked about the actual size of orfices they're using.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

ODDD1

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

thought I saw .040" for under 1000CID motors....but I am quoting someone else...dont know myself.....
 

Hooty

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

That sounds like a really large range for one size orfice, but what do I know. I'm just trying to figure out how to correlate results from one engine to the next.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

Forktail

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

ODDD1 is correct. .040" for 1000 cid and under. .060" for 1000 cid and over. I only use this leak down tool on 4-stroke outboards. Two gauges and orifice.<br /><br />For 2-stroke leak down test I use a single gauge with the hand bulb pump, no orifice. I plug the intake and exhaust and pressurize the engine through a fitting on the intake plug. Then I use a solution of soapy water to look for leaks through base and head gasket, pto or mag seals, etc. Depending on the outboard, sometimes you have to use innertube between the exhaust manifold and block. If you can't plug the carb boots with a rubber bung you can make a simple plate/gasket to bolt up to the intake blocking it off.<br /><br />Be careful using the higher pressures with the dual gauge 4-stroke tool.....crank seals (and other seals) can blow out of the 2-stroke real easy. I learned the hard way.....that's why I use the lower pressure single gauge hand pumper now. :D
 

Hooty

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

O-k Forktail, you're not doing a leakdown test (rings) but a leak test of the gaskets, seals,etc. That would be pretty easy to do if the p/h is on the bench with no carbs. Good idea Forktail, I'll keep that in mind.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

Dhadley

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

Just curious -- 1000 cid or 1000 cc or 100 cid?<br /><br />Hooty, you dont have to take the carbs or intake off to pressure check the water passages but you do have to have the powerhead off the mid section. The blockoff plate goes on the base and we use 15 lbs of air to pressureize the water passages. <br /><br />Fairly simple!
 

Hooty

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

Roger the water passage pressure test but the way I understand Forktail, he's pressure testing crankshaft seals, intake manifold and crankcase gaskets, etc. Stuff not in the cooling water circuit.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

Forktail

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

Good question Dhadley. It thought it was 1000 cid....but that's huge. :eek: Now you got me wondering. I'll look into it. It's really not that big of a deal as long as you're able to get a pressure differential reading that can be measured on the gauges. The pressure differential is what you're after. Basically the tool (gauges) are measuring a pressure drop across a flow restriction. The orifice is acting as that flow restriction. In big cylinders the smaller .040" orifice will probably not show enough pressure differential because of the larger volume of air in the bigger cylinder. Thus the .060" orifice. I would say if you can get a % differential using either orifice, then either orifice will work. If one orifice is beyond the gauge's limits, then it won't work. You could trial and error.<br /><br />This brings up a good point. It's rare, but some precision engine makers specify (and provide) the appropriate orifice to do these tests, along with the % leakdown over X amount of time using that particular oriface. Really, without these specs a 4-stroke leak down test is blowing in the wind. With so many types of rings, piston coatings, cylinder alloys, and designed tolerences. Specs between different engines could be very diverse. For example, we've done a leak down test and have results. Now what? We have nothing to compare them to..... :D
 

Hooty

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

Now what? We have nothing to compare them to...<br /><br />Exactly.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

Forktail

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

Hooty, I don't want to confuse you, but this is the way I have always understood and used compression and leak down tests.<br /><br />I must first do a compression check to know that I have low compression, uneven compression, or losing compression at all. Hopefully I have some specs to go by. I only proceed to a leak down test if the compression is poor. A leak down test helps me pinpoint where I'm losing compression, and on 4-strokes, how much that loss is.<br /><br />The reason I do a leak down is because the mere indication of poor compression alone does not tell me why the compression is poor. It isn't always the rings. It could be a stuck open valve on a 4-stroke, or an air leak or bad seal on a 2-stroke. The leak down test helps me diagnose this without opening up the engine.<br /><br />But as I mentioned before, leak down tests for 4-strokes and 2-strokes are different. Even the tools are different. This is mainly because of the engine's valves.<br /><br />There is very little reason to pressurize the cylinder of a 2-stroke with compressed air and measure the pressure differential. There are no intake or exhaust valves to leak. Pressurizing the entire cylinder of a 2-stroke would cause leakage out the intake and exhaust ports. You can't hear the air leak out the crankcase tube....cause there isn't one. And if you were concerned with a cracked cylinder wall or head gasket you could simply do a pressure test....no need for the % differential leak down. A "wet" compression test (which is assumed to have been done prior) already indicated the condition of the rings and cylinder. If the wet compression test brought up the compression significantly, I know I have ring/cylinder problems. But if it didn't bring it up, then the lost compression is going somewhere else.<br /><br />On a 2-stroke there aren't many places for the compression to go. Pretty much seals and gaskets. Doing the low pressure 2-stroke leak down test that I mentioned (hand pump through the intake plug) will pretty much pinpoint the leak. Under these lower pressures with the intake and exhaust openings plugged, even cylinder wall and head gasket failure can be found while rotating the engine and piston to different positions. You don't need 80 psi in the spark plug hole to do this.<br /><br />Now on a 4-stroke the leak can be a result of the valves. A prior "wet" compression check isn't going to be as definitive. The valves add more dimensions to the diagnosis since a wet compression check may also seal the valves if they were leaking. Thus we use the dual gauge differential leak down tester. With it we can not only record the % leakdown of each cylinder, but listen at the exhaust (exhaust valve leak), intake (intake valve leak), crankcase breather (rings/cylinder leak), adjacent cylinder (head gasket leak), or look in the radiator for bubbles. Since we have no way of plugging the intake and exhaust ports we move the crank position until both valves are closed. From here, and with the 4-stroke leak down tester, we can see if the pressure stabilizes or if it leaks some % within specifications. Some 4-strokes mignt have some type of leak down specs available from the factory. Two strokes aren't so lucky.<br /><br />As a note, all pistons/rings will leak somewhat under pressure. It is normal.<br /><br />Hooty, plugging the exhaust on a 2-stroke outboard can be a real bugger, but it beats tearing the engine down if you don't have to. Also be careful applying high pressure to the cylinder of a 2-stroke on the bench....the pressure can rotate the crankshaft and you'll have a wild thing on your hands. Tie it down. Don't blow the gaskets and seals out trying to do a high pressure differential test on a 2-stroke.<br /><br />Bottom line is I don't use a dual gauge differential leak down tester with any size orifice on a 2-stroke. I use a compression tester and a 2-stroke leak down tester. I'm sure everyone has their own way. :D
 

Forktail

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Re: Orfice Size For Leak-Down Test

I know Hooty. I've never ever seen leak down %'s for any 2-stroke outboard. I think I remember seeing some years ago for the early Honda 4-strokes....maybe Yamaha 4's. ??<br /><br />I know 4-stroke makers like BMW and aircraft will have them.<br /><br />I found these in my tool box...but of course they go for 4-strokes.<br /><br />0-5% = excellent condition. Racing specs.<br /><br />5-15% = good condition. Normal.<br /><br />15-25% = poor condition. Runs, but bad performance.<br /><br />25- up% = very poor condition. Needs rebuilding.<br /><br />Most 2-strokes should hold about 8 psi for about 8-10 minutes with a 2-stroke leak down tester.
 
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