On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

[SoulWinner]

Coalititon forces trying to arrest that nutty cleric over there have been in fire fight for several hours. This is what should have been done from the beginning, get the guys that are inciting violence from the mosques and the islamic fundamentalist schools.

 

[plywoody]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

While I agree with that for the most part, I am afraid it is not that simple.<br />Their followers *believe* what those clerics are saying, and not likely to have an epiphany once they are thrown in jail.<br /><br />That is the problem, of course, with religious and cultural wars, in that they are based on "beliefs" and not any sort of logic. And it is impossible to get agreement on what is "good" vs what is "evil"<br /><br />Imagine what you would do and feel if the religious leaders you look up to and follow were being attacked and killed or arrested by some outside force. While you may or may not take up arms and fight directly, it is not likely you are going to come around to the other's point of view any time soon.<br /><br />And what is "truth" to you is certainly not what is "truth" to them, and unfortunately there is no accepted ultimate arbiter of what exactly is "truth".

 

[lakelover]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

No "truer" words spoken, Plywoody!

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Have always wanted to ask this question of Americans:<br /><br />What are you going to do when a Muslin Super power invades your country, believing you to be evil, and wishing to install what they believe is a right and correct way of life.?<br /><br />More than a year back,I listened to a speech on TV of the past Malaysian Prime Minister.<br /><br />Believe me, I am no fan of his.<br /><br />He asked they question at a conference of Leaders....<br /><br />"Why is it when an American is killed by a Muslin, it is an act of terrorism and must be avenged, but when hundreds of Muslin inocent women and children are killed by Americans, it is called collatoral damage."<br /><br />Cheers<br />Pkillip

 

[JB]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Hmmmm.<br /><br />Once in a while Plywoody makes sense.<br /><br />I agree that it is a mistake to view our adversaries as deluded, evil or brainwashed.<br /><br />On the other hand, that doesn't make their beliefs correct or their cause just.<br /><br />It is an even greater error to sympathize with their unjust cause. That is what defeated us in Viet Nam.

 

[ChrisMcLaughlin]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Followers are just that. Followers. I do think that an epiphany generally follows the distruction of everything you own and know.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Go Plywoody, Go Plywoody, GO!!!!!!<br /><br />Right on the mark. <br /><br />Somehow I think our responses to this suituation might be a little differnt....

 

[18rabbit]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

"Why is it when an American is killed by a Muslin, it is an act of terrorism and must be avenged, but when hundreds of Muslin inocent women and children are killed by Americans, it is called collatoral damage."<br />

Phil – I think the difference is Americans abroad have gotten picked off as a result of malice aforethought. There was terror as the intent. The women and children (and men, too!) that are killed by American ‘operations’ are really just that; collateral damage. They are not intended as targets nor are they sacrificed for religious reasons or to instill political terror in those that survive.<br /><br />America spends an overwhelming amount of money on developing weapons that can accomplish their intent with the absolute minimum collateral damage; be it people or infrastructure. The means to end the conflict today is there. The desire to is not…and that remains a significant difference between the Muslim agenda and ours…the concern for collateral damage.

 

[SCO]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

They came over to get us Phil. We are engaging "them" right now in Iraq. We impose democracy because the alternative is for "them" to impose their world on us. They started it. WRT Iraq, they surrendered in the gulf war after taking Kuwait. At the time of that surrender, they were our spoil. That they did not mend their threatening ways and abide by their terms of surrender, we reclaim those spoils to allow the people of Iraq choose Democracy. Yes, they choose. We can't force it on them. If in fact the majority of people over there reject Democracy, then it will not happen. The warlords have power and sway. Once defeated the picture may just look a lot better. Resolve is what the armed forces need from us, the politicians, media. What the enemy needs is handwringing from us. Thats the only way they can defeat us.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

well stated SCO as usual.<br />caught a segment on fox news where the discussed<br />how yemen has gotten rid of 90% of the alqueda<br />cells in their country. how? they payed off the <br />warlords who had been protecting them. seems they<br />weren't protecting them for any religious reasons<br />whatsoever, they just did it because they were<br />paid and paid well. <br />very interesting if you think about it....

 

[plywoody]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

It's not that I am making more sense, JB. It is purely because you are getting smarter!

 

[plywoody]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Oh, and SCO, I agree with you 100 % We should indeed relentlessly go after those that killed our citizens in New York and Washington, as well as around the world, and destroy them.<br /><br />Unfortunately, we went to Iraq instead

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

to SCO:<br /><br />I don't wish to inflame anything: I believe we are all of the same opinion regards terrorism, but I do have some questions re your post.<br /> <br />1. when did they, (the Iraqis) come over to get you? (if you refer to the sep 11, them:<br /> a. there wasn't an Iraqi among them<br /> b. Iraq didn't finance them<br /> c. They didn't train in Iraq<br /> d. Saddan had nothing to do with them<br /> e. They had nothing to do with Iraq<br />so what has Iraq got to do with coming over to get you?<br /><br />2. when did they (the Iraqis) try to impose their world on you? <br />I believed they wanted to have as little as possible to do with you.<br /><br />3. I certainly didn't agree with their invasion of Kuwait. The Gulf war was legitimate.<br /><br />to 18rabbit<br />1.Who picked off the Americans abroad? I know it happened, and often, and something serious had to be done, but was never aware it was Iraqis or had the slightest connection to Iraq.<br /><br />I seem to recal from my school days Iraqis were a different race of peoples from Iranians, Saudis and Palistineans. In fact, don't they have a totally different name as a race.<br /><br />If you are a White Christian from America, then what similarities do you have with a White Christian from Greece? Bug-ar all I would suggest. Maybe the same applies to Iraqis and their surrounding countries.<br /><br />Cheers<br />Phillip

 

[Boomyal]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

KiwiPhil, you ought to quit listening to CNN, this is not a NEW war, this was a continuation of the original Gulf War for which Saddam Hussein failed to abide by the conditions of the cease fire. He ignored your sacred world government body's mandates by the bushel and time and time again. We just backed up what The Socialist World Order Government failed to do. <br /><br />If he wasn't an immediate threat to the US at the moment, a few more yanks on the rest of the pacifist Wests' chain and he sure would have been.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Phil – sorry I wasn’t clear. My comment was not meant to suggest anything about the validity of what is going on in Iraq. What I meant to say was that America has the means to end any problem, anywhere, at anytime. We choose not. Instead we invest heavily in weapons systems that can accomplish their intent with the absolute minimum of collateral damage to people and infrastructure. We have come a long way since the bombing of Dresden. By contrast, our enemy (whether you believe them to be real or contrived) is trying for the greatest collateral damage on both sides.<br /><br />Btw, America’s ultimate ability to reach out and touch someone without ever leaving home also helps keep Australia secure, too. It is just the prospect of the collateral damage from the use of such weaponry that keeps a lot of the world in place. It kept the USSR in check during the cold war and right now it is causing China to proceed with caution.

 

[SCO]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Not inflamed Kiwi, and think we should talk frankly about these things. My post does not link 911 to Iraq directly though I think Iraq more likely than not was aiding, abetting and encouraging alqaeda and other terrorists to attack us, but that is beside the point."Them" refers to the middle Eastern terrorsits and alqaeda whom we are fighting there now. As Bush said you're with us or against us and "them" are those that are against us. I agree thet the Shiite battles of today are for control of Iraq but of course comingled are the efforts and aims of Alqaeda etc. The point of Iraq is that it is an opportunity for us to solve the middle eastern problem by providing a means for middle eartern people to escape dictatorial control. If we can pull that off we are working toward a real solution to the root cause of the middle eastern threat. We are now in a horrific fight and it bothers me greatly that our boys are dying. So. Do we pull out? From my perspective the choices of appeasment , weakness, fear will result in the greatest loss of life here and around the world. I am glad I am not calling the shots and sure as heck wouldn't do or say anything to comfort the enemy. Did you catch the appeal of this 30 yr old Shiite Cleric??? He appealed directly to the left of this country...even said this would be a Viet Nam. I listened to Condi's entire testimony today. You will find a lot of answers right there. Iraq is phase 2 of our fight against trerrorism. The general cauldron of the middle east is what produced 911, and that cauldron is what we must quench if we are to have peace. Iraq is part of that cauldron, one where action was due and where the diplomatic string had been exhausted. THis is not a police action, and that is what your argument calls for. It is an attack against terrorism because anything else would be ineffective. We are witnessing a clash of civilization. We can hunker down and hold up our shields as the enemy gains confidence and strength and surrounds us, or we can take it to them while there is a chance of avoiding an all out Nuclear war. Lest you scoff at that, what do you think we will do when they start blowing up nukes in our country. We will release the hounds in that case. <br />Good points Rabbit wrt our morality vs theirs.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Phil,<br />Someone correct me if I am wrong, but haven't they confirmed that there were al quaeda(sp) cells working and training in Iraq? If so, then your question #1, (and letter a through e), has been answered. I must also ask Phil, do you think the world is better off now that Saddam is not in power?<br /><br />Question #2 - Maybe they didn't try to impose their world on us, but I don't believe they wanted as little to do with us as possible. Saddam and his regime wanted all Americans dead.<br /><br />Question #1 to SCO - Same as #1 above.<br /><br />I don't believe we are pushing Democracy down their throats. We are offering an alternative. We are offering a Democracy to people that have only known Dictatorship. It will ultimetely be for the Iraqi people to decide if they want their country run by the people and for the people.<br /><br />Sorry Phil, I know these questions weren't for me.<br />I hope I didn't offend by giving my answers.

 

[SCO]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Agreed Carp. I dont personally know if a definitive link between Iraq and 911 has been found, but they did have a practice airliner , didn't they(to all you who feel comfy confidently claiming no link to 911 by Saddam).

 

[Carphunter]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

I just read my own response, and confused myself. If it doesn't make sense, its my fault.

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Originally posted by Carphunter:<br />I just read my own response, and confused myself. If it doesn't make sense, its my fault.

er..............., no comment.