old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

[spartanpele]

I have a 94 Four Winns, OMC/Volva Penta 3.0 GS-SX.<br /><br />Yesterday when I changed the oil, (after warmup), I noticed the oil was like chocolate (light brown). Is this because of water in the oil, or is it because of old oil. It wasn't changed out before last winter so I question when the last time it was changed.<br /><br />After changing the oil and filter, I ran it again, then rechecked the dipstick and the oil was clear and fresh.<br /><br />Should I be concerned about a water leak somewhere or is it possible the oil was just old and needed to be changed badly? Right now I plan on lake testing it this upcoming weekend and checking the oil condition after every usage from then on to see if it returns to the chocolate color.<br /><br />Any thoughts?...Thanks!

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

I should also add that the engine was not fogged before winter, therefore I question if some of the brown color was rust from the cylinder walls or elsewhere.

 

[I/O WALDO]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

Keep an eye on her and good luck!(gotta rabbit's foot?)

 

[youmansjason]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

That's a tough one....chocolate is brown and the last time I checked, oil was brown too! <br /><br />Now, if you are talking about chocolate like chocolate milk, that's cloudy and light brown, I would be worried. That sounds like water is mixing in with the oil. But, if you are talking about a dark chocolate, like a Hershey bar, then you might be OK....just dirty oil.<br /><br />Good luck!

 

[boatgrunt]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

I would put money on you having water in your oil. Really dirty oil typically turns black, not lighter than the original color. Next time you run the engine, pull the the plugs and see if they are wet. You might want to pull the valve covers and look for imulsified (sp?) oil stuck to the underside. If the plugs aren't wet, I've read a lot of experts on this board recommend a pressure test or leakdown test. I don't know how to do either, but try searching for those words in previous posts. Typical "water in the oil" culprits are old exhaust manifolds, blown head gasket and cracked block.

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

This is brown like hot cocoa or chocolate milk, not brown like a Hershey bar.<br /><br />The next free chance I get, I'm going to try to slowly pump the oil with the engine being cold, thinking that if theres water, it will come out first since it will be on the bottom of the pan. <br /><br />I'm also going to pull the plugs and check for water and rust deposits.<br /><br />If I see water, then I'll start the sleuthing to determine where its coming from... I know this engine hasn't been ran at above slow idle speed in almost a year, so I question it not being hot enough to burn out any moisture....but this seems a bit more severe.<br /><br />People keep mentioning exhaust manifolds, etc... I'll dig out my manuals and head that direction first if I find water.

 

[beezee28]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

If the color of the oil is like chocolate milk then there is water in the oil and you need to have that check out. Steel and water don't mix well and the byproduct would be rust and that would be the last thing you want in your engine. Yu will want to look for the source of the water intrusion. Good luck.

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

An update...<br /><br />Last night I did some more sleuthing. I pulled each of the spark plugs and every one of them looked clean (no water, no rust). I turned over the engine by hand, no water came out.<br /><br />I then started to pump out the oil and it came out looking chocolatey again, but not as tan as last weekend. Obviously I still have a water issue, or some water leftover from whatever happened before.<br /><br />I still need to replace the p/s oil cooler as its been leaking water down the side of the block and into the bilge area, plus I still need to replace the impeller. <br /><br />Some of my questions:<br />Is it possible that the water leaking from the p/s cooler somehow made its way into a passage at the block?<br /><br />Should I put in fresh oil and let it run for a while to see if it gets worse or better? Or am I better off not running it and pulling off parts one by one looking for a crack?<br /><br />btw: When I did start looking over the engine heavily I noticed that the intake manifold had been boogered with some JB weld on the underside then painted (it was only visible with a mirror.)<br /><br />Is that my most logical place to look for a crack? <br /><br />Will an internal crack in the intake manifold allow water to get into the oil passages? Should I take it off and do a pressure test? <br /><br />I know that my search of this problem also listed the riser as a possible problem too? Should I pull that and look there as well.<br /><br />I guess what I need to find out is...should I even bother putting in fresh oil and restarting or should I start taking off parts one by one looking for cracks. If I find one crack, do I assume thats it and then fix, refill with oil and test, or do I continue pulling stuff since its all apart anyway?<br /><br />As a side note, this engine has never over heated that I'm aware of and it runs extremely smooth. If it wasn't for changing the oil this spring, I would have never known there was a problem with water.<br /><br />I'm just looking for some step by step advise...Thanks!

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

After more research and finding the Mercruiser "water intrusion" file, I have a step by step process:<br /><br />(1) change out old oil and filter.<br />(2) start up engine and run to oper temp.<br />(3) shut down engine and inspect for water above pistons (in spark plug area). If water found..do compression test. If no water found, <br />(4) inspect oil for water....if no water found, done. But if water still in oil, <br />(5) remove and inspect riser and manifold, replace as needed...<br />(6) if riser and manifolds are good, pressure test head and block.<br /><br />In the end, this process should help me eliminate the riser, manifold, and finally head/block.<br /><br />If anyone sees a problem with my steps, please let me know. I hope to start the testing this Memorial Day weekend. So much for boating this holiday!

 

[Bondo]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

I'd do 1 thru 4,........<br /><br />Then if you Still have Water in the Oil,.....<br /><br />Drain All of the Water from the Cooling System,......<br />Pull the Riser,+ Block-off the Entire Cooling System,.........<br />And Pressurize it with Air,....... It'll only be Seconds before you Hear the Leak......<br />Then just Follow the Sound of Escaping Air...........

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

Thanks, Bondo. <br /><br />My only question is this... if the crack is internal (passage way between water and oil), will I still hear the leak when pressurized? <br /><br />If I pressurize the whole cooling system, wouldn't any leak from cooling system to oil system mean air going into the block, head, pan, etc?<br /><br />During a visual inspection I can't see any external leaks, so I suspect an internal crack in the manifold or riser...most likely the manifold because of the prior owner using JB on the underside of it.<br /><br />If I pull the riser, I can pressure test it...and if I pull the manifold, I can pressure test that. <br /><br />Thoughts??

 

[KaGee]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

Spartan...<br /><br />Are you getting a lot of condensation at the breather hoses as the engine warms up???

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

I know I'll get reamed for this ...but which hoses are the "breather hoses"? Theres water circulation hoses, the valve cover pcv hose, the fuel line hoses... which hoses are the "breather hoses"?

 

[KaGee]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

Well, maybe I'll get flamed... not all that familiar with the 3.0... most of the V-6 and V-8's have a crankcase breather hose attached to the valve covers and are routed and attached via a bracket to the flame arrestor on the carburater. Fumes from the crankcase are sucked up by the carb and burned.<br /><br />An engine getting water in the oil will often drip excessive condensation from those hoses as the engine reaches operating temps...

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

On the Volvo/OMC 3.0L theres one pcv hose between the valve cover and carb as you described. I don't recall seeing moisture there, but can definetly watch for it next time.<br /><br />The only external leak I ever saw when running the engine was the p/s cooler, but, thats not a part of the engines internal cooling system. However, it did constantly drip water onto the block and it accumulated in the bilge area before I drained it recently. I left the bilge on auto and it wasn't till the engine was shut off that the bilge started kicking out the water, because of the cooler leak.<br /><br />My intent is to change out the cooler and impeller asap, but, I want to know about the manifolds condition before replacing the cooler since it bolts to it.<br /><br />I'm still considering Bondos thought about pressurizing the cooling system, but question if I'll hear the leak if its an internal crack between the cooling system and oil system. I still have to think that physically removing the riser and manifold will allow me to do a thorough inspection, plus, I don't know if the prior owner ever changed them out, and the boat is 12 yrs old.

 

[Bondo]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

but question if I'll hear the leak if its an internal crack between the cooling system and oil system. I still have to think that physically removing the riser and manifold will allow me to do a thorough inspection, plus, I don't know if the prior owner ever changed them out, and the boat is 12 yrs old.

If you drain all the Water,+ Pressureize,.....<br />You'll hear the Leak,..... IF there Is 1,... Regardless of Where it is........<br /><br />You can Pressure Test Each Individual Piece,.... Or the Whole System.......<br /><br />It's Easier doing the Whole Thing.....And you can get a Good Look at the Riser/Manifold connection,.. The Problem Point anyways......<br />Build a Block-off plate to cover the Riser Hole in the Manifold,+ Put about 15lbs into the In-coming Line,.....<br />And,......... Listen........

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

As a followup.....<br /><br />On Friday I started the disassebly process to pressurize the cooling system. I had just taken off the p/s oil cooler when I noticed water leaking along the underside of the manifold. It was right in the area that the prior owner had boogered the manifold, and sure enough when I used the mirror and a light, a very clear crack with water leaking out showed up.<br /><br />After many knuckle busters of working on the boat so far this spring, and a pending out of state trip coming up next week, I decided to call up the local marina to find out what they would charge for replacing the manifold.<br /><br />They said it would take approx 2-3 hrs labor (@ $95 an hour), plus parts (manifold, manifold gaskets, carb gaskets, riser gastkets), which all in all s/b about $600-800. <br /><br />I know parts alone would cost me $400-500 and I was debating doing it all myself, but the Mrs. is persuading me to let the shop do this one and instead concentrate on the upcoming vacation. <br /><br />So if all goes right, I'll drop off the boat next week, go on vacation, and come back with it all done and ready for summer use. <br /><br />Does 2-3 hrs @ $95.00 an hour sound reasonable for replacing the manifold? This is just a straight 4cyl engine, but does $700-800 for the whole job sound right?

 

[Bondo]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

Sounds like a Low Ball figure,....... Don't be Shocked at writing a $1000.00 Check..........<br /><br />There's Always the "Shop Supplies",+ other Incidental Parts that Drive Up a Bill.....

 

[I/O WALDO]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

Puttin a man.on potential leaky block?Way back on the 24th when you changed the oil and it came back "not as tan as last weekend"was the oil level up,if so ya better do like Bondo say ,if not,ya may be lucky.

 

[spartanpele]

Re: old oil, or water in oil...chocolate color

I don't think its a cracked block or head. Not once this spring has it ever misfired, ran rough, overheated or had any water in the plug/piston area during all the startups and testing.<br /><br />All signs point to the crack in the manifold as being the culprit of the water intrusion in the oil.