oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

QC

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> From Quietcat<br />Quote><br /><br />a) really stupid, b) just another arrogant Yank that wants to keep ruining their lives by driving an SUV (never mind that my boss drives an S class Merc), c) just kidding, right?<br /><br />Quote off<br /><br />Ok, so which is it? I am curious.
Their perspective, yours or mine? Truth be told . . . prolly a. :D
 

jtexas

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Originally posted by rolmops:<br />
Originally posted by Quietcat:<br /> rolomops,<br /><br />"You know better than that. You have only sited potential causes, no direct link."
That, my friend is a matter of opinion.and this is where it becomes politics.<br />I just look for cause and effect.
you've described a sequence of events; that doesn't prove cause and effect.<br /><br />
<br />you previously said <br />Modern technology caused the amount of energy used per human to really increase a lot.<br />That in very simple terms is the reason why I believe that global warming,caused by or at least accelerated by human beings is a reality that is not to be denied.<br />
Are you saying that the use of energy by humans is warming the planet?<br /><br />The Earth is a closed system, there is a finite amount of energy. The dino's used energy before becoming fossil fuels themselves; the processes that cause a tree to store energy until released in a fireplace, themselves use energy.<br /><br />I'm not disputing your thesis, I'm just saying you haven't proved it. At least I think you haven't. Have you? Not sure.
 

rolmops

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

There are a few things that I disagree with.The earth is not a closed system.We daily receive fantastic amounts of photons from the sun, which are tranferred by plants into electricity(photo synthesis) and from there into either energy or carbon based mass.Of course we also loose heat into space but not mass.Besides the amount of energy we loose is not neccesarily the same as the amount absorbed.<br />You have to figure in your time dimension(4th)in your energy release calculation.The shorter the 4th dimensional energy release period becomes, the more intense that release will be.AKA If it took let's say 300 million years for this energy/mass reserve to build up and you release it in 500 years,there is bound to be a reaction,mostly because the volume of energy that this planet can give off daily to space is limited by roughly the same time factor that still works in the 300 million year calculation(although increased heat will cause increased release ,up to a point).The result is that this energy/heat is stored within the ecosystem until it can be released in space.<br />In addition to this there is another side effect that might cause trouble.If the world burns up let's 30 million barrels of oil(HYDRO carbons) a day,then the byproduct of this chemical reaction is quite a few million barrels of water that is now on the surface.I don't think anybody has so far given any thought about the effects of all that water.
 

rodbolt

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

but does it all mean my heating bill will be les this year :) <br /> and what about the greenhouse emissions of the worlds active volcanoes? I guess we can install scrubbers on them.<br /> folks this world changes, sometimes incredibly rapidly and not always for the best for all species. a case is the wolley mammoths buried on the siberien steppes. something changed the climate incredibly rapidly and kept it that way, thats why they have found them with undigested food in the stomachs, something frooze them rapidly and kept them that way so even the stomach bacteria died with the animal. about the only thing I can logically think of is something big, very big, happened and caused the earth to change its rotational axis and possibly speed of rotation.same as some of the dino fields. when you find areas like montanna that have multible specieas and varying ages, fromm egg to late adult, buried in the same strata it indicates that someting killed and covered them very rapidly or natures scavengers from the mightest meat eaters to the tiniest bacteria would have made short work of the carcasses.<br /> but so far from what I can see the global warming is a global hype.
 

Dunaruna

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> folks this world changes, sometimes incredibly rapidly and not always for the best for all species.
Granted, but are we causing damage by accelerating the process, or are we simply a small part of the entire equation.<br /><br />Quietcat, I don't think it's 'A'.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Guess were going to half to start killing off people and stop burning stuff.<br /><br />Lets sum up the total amount of energy produced in a day by humans and compare that to the total amount of energy absorbed by the sun.<br /><br /><br />Ken
 

oddjob

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Hey Snapper thanks for the correction....I really did read the journal....I swear :rolleyes:
 

jtexas

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Originally posted by rolmops:<br /> There are a few things that I disagree with.The earth is not a closed system.We daily receive fantastic amounts of photons from the sun, which are tranferred by plants into electricity(photo synthesis) and from there into either energy or carbon based mass.Of course we also loose heat into space but not mass.Besides the amount of energy we loose is not neccesarily the same as the amount absorbed.
thanks.<br /><br />I think I got it now. Sun to plants to animals to hydrocarbons to horsepower. Burn 500 million years worth of fuel in 300 million years = more heat. Our heat sink is at or above capacity already. Therefore, ceteris paribus, global warming. But are you sure ceteris is paribus?<br /><br />And the really important question: can we expect skimpier<br />
pht_uniform2.jpg
<br />Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader outfits?
 

rolmops

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

That is a presumption that I am guilty off.I do think that all other things are equal within normal variation parameters.Mostly because, with exceptions like meteorites,change within very large ecosystems is bound to be slow and so far we have not seen any of the other parameters changing.But maybe with new research we may find other things.<br />On second thought though,we know that this planet is an organic entity where everything reacts to everything else and constant change albeit slow is a given.So maybe there is no ceteris paribus that can be applied.
 

PW2

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

We are supposed to radiate the excess energy recieved from the sun thru the atmosphere, but the "greenhouse effect" traps the extra heat and won't let it escape.<br /><br />It does seem that this argument, for some reason, has morphed somehow into a political one as opposed to a scientific one.<br /><br />Rarely can anything in science, especially meteorlogical science, can be pinned down to a specific cause and effect relationship.<br /><br />The facts are:<br /> <br />(1)The earth is warming a measurable amount, the polar ice caps are melting. That is not in dispute.<br /><br />(2) models have shown that Excess greenhouse gasses can cause this phenomenon in a controlled environment.<br /><br />(3) volcanos, forest fires, and I am sure other events add to the greenhouse gasses<br /><br />(4) we can't stop volcanos, but we can take steps to limit and control what we can control.<br /><br />(5) The reason why we don't work to limit human caused emissions is apparently, from the arguments I've heard, that it may be inconvenient and cost us some money.<br /><br />And I wonder why the world considers yanks selfish and arrogant? I cannot imagine why!
 

QC

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> We are supposed to radiate the excess energy recieved from the sun thru the atmosphere, but the "greenhouse effect" traps the extra heat and won't let it escape.<br />
That's the argument, is this real, imagined, or is it a question of degree (no pun intended)<br /><br />
Originally posted by PW2:<br /> It does seem that this argument, for some reason, has morphed somehow into a political one as opposed to a scientific one.
That's for sure, but there are defintiely "scientists" who don't care. "My agenda is more important than the facts, so it is OK to fudge a little . . ."<br /><br />
Originally posted by PW2:<br />And I wonder why the world considers yanks selfish and arrogant? I cannot imagine why!
Maybe we more strongly believe in giving more to defeat evil (we do) than others believe it is important to spend on an imaginary issue that we probably cannot affect. As I have posted before, let's prioritize this stuff . . .
 

BoatBuoy

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Originally posted by Quietcat:<br /> ...but there are defintiely "scientists" who don't care. "My agenda is more important than the facts, so it is OK to fudge a little . . ."<br />
Even though that's the position of a few scientists, it's the position of most all politicians.
 

PW2

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Yep, let's prioritize better. Let's spend our money building two bridges to nowhere in Alaska.<br /><br />An imaginary issue? ...Probably cannot affect?... Is that a scientific assessment? Or a political one?<br /><br />You all are somehow expecting science to give black and white answers to difficult complex questions. Humans are putting significant amounts greenhouse gasses in the environment. That is not in dispute. It likely is not helping the overall problem. You'll not likely to get every scientist to absolutely agree on the extent of the problem.<br /><br />So what? All things being equal, working to limit emissions cannot do harm, and may well do some good. So why not at least try?<br /><br />Frankly, if we can convince just the developed nations to join in, It would probably be an economic plus for this country, as what we tend to do best is designing and building technically complex equipment like this will require to supply to the rest of the world.<br /><br />And I think it is "evil" to recognize a global environmental problem, and choose to do nothing simply out of convenience.
 

oddjob

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Was that a yes or no PW....on the priority thingy?.....just curious..
 

jtexas

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that in the long run (I'm talkin really, really long run), alternatives to fossil fuels will be necessary, greenhouse warming or no.<br /><br />Problem is, how many generations down the road before it gets critical? Sort of a temporal NIMBY type thing...maybe NIMLT (Not In My LifeTime)? Then there's the question of just exactly what is My LifeTime (they say 50 is the new 30, right?). And the rate of technological advance. I'm getting dizzy, better sit down...
 

QC

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> So what? All things being equal, working to limit emissions cannot do harm, and may well do some good. So why not at least try?
I have posted more than once that I kinda agree with this position. More accurately, I believe that finding ways to use energy more efficiently is a good thing. I don't agree necessarily with the emissions statement as nobody can agree, frankly, on what emissions are important. Don't quickly dimiss that last staement either. I am dead serious, and this is what I do for a living.<br /><br />
Originally posted by PW2:<br />And I think it is "evil" to recognize a global environmental problem, and choose to do nothing simply out of convenience.
Back to priorities . . . Please don't dilute the word evil. I reserve that for evil. What you describe as evil, may be, if the environment is your religion. When I say evil I mean things like brutalizing children, Dennis Rader, Hitler etc. etc.<br /><br />I agree with OJ, still not sure of your position . . .
 

QC

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Re: oddjobs troll-Global Warming!

Jtex,<br /><br />I promise you that IF there is something that is more or equally economical AND fits your lifestyle, that you and many others will buy it. There is nothing that fits that criteria for me yet.<br /><br />Mini Pet-peeve (sp) rant: I would also suggest that anybody who blames SUV ownership as somehow irresponsible doesn't understand the idea of passenger mileage as opposed to vehicle mileage. Even an H2 probably uses less fuel per person with four in it than a Toyota Prius does with one. No need to flame, as I know there are many H2 owners who drive them alone, but the point is that just because they are defined as an SUV does not mean that they are not applied properly. Some people own Ferraris too . . .<br /><br />PW, Do you own a boat? If yes, you are part of the problem unless it is a sailboat . . .
 
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