No start.

sogood

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If everything checks out and the slow crank is the only thing preventing a start, where's the best place to look for the cause? I had the same slow crank after trying the battery from my car. 90ah which spins my 4.0 litre effortlessly still only turned the boat engine slowly. I also bypassed the battery selector switch to eliminate any bad contacts. Would the ignition switch ( also replaced) or wiring contribute to a slow crank? Thanks.
 

sogood

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Need some information here guys. Tried googling to no avail. Regarding my slow crank, running some tests today, I discovered that the terminal on the starter solenoid that the (Red/Yellow) feed from the ignition to the starter connects to is shorting to ground. The wire itself doesn't short, but the terminal does. There is another small terminal on the solenoid that does nothing (nothing connected) but it doesn't short. Could I have simply mixed up the connections when I removed the cables to clean up the terminals etc.

As mentioned, starter bench tested fine, spinning real fast, but cranking slowly on the boat. Oddly enough, it hasn't blown any fuses (properly rated) nor has it tripped the overload. trying to avoid pulling the PITA starter again. Thanks in advance. PS, not sure what type of starter is fitted . Thanks in advance.
 

Bondo

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I discovered that the terminal on the starter solenoid that the (Red/Yellow) feed from the ignition to the starter connects to is shorting to ground. The wire itself doesn't short, but the terminal does. There is another small terminal on the solenoid that does nothing (nothing connected) but it doesn't short. Could I have simply mixed up the connections when I removed the cables to clean up the terminals etc.

Ayuh,..... Of the 2 tiny terminals on a starter's solenoid, the 1 closest to the block, is the exciter wire, which activates the solenoid, 'n starter,....
It's power comes from the slave solenoid, which is activated by the key switch,... wires are yellow/ red,....

On the tiny terminal, furthest Away from the block, should be a purple/ yellow wire that feeds battery voltage to the coil, but only while startin',...
If an electric fuel pump is used,(not that this includes yerself) it also gets battery voltage from this terminal,....

So,... No, ya can't swap terminals, as they do very different things,....

Exactly, How did ya get these test values,..??
 

sogood

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Thanks for the feedback. So, the red/yellow switch feed from the ignition goes onto the "inside" small terminal, as you say, nearest the block. I don't recollect any wire (purple/yellow) being present. I can have a look see tomorrow and see if it's there but not connected. My coil has two connections on it, + and -. The - has a single greyish coloured wire attached, the tacho signal, yes? The opposite + side has two wires attached, one purple and one pale green. Does this make sense?

​As for my test values, I assume you mean the "grounding" of the ignition feed terminal on my solenoid? I tested the circuit to ground with a multi meter and it rings out as a complete circuiy, as in, continuity from the terminal to engine ground. Hope this is all clear and thanks again. Will look for that "missing" purple wire at the solenoid.
 

sogood

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Ayuh,..... Of the 2 tiny terminals on a starter's solenoid, the 1 closest to the block, is the exciter wire, which activates the solenoid, 'n starter,....
It's power comes from the slave solenoid, which is activated by the key switch,... wires are yellow/ red,....

On the tiny terminal, furthest Away from the block, should be a purple/ yellow wire that feeds battery voltage to the coil, but only while startin',...
If an electric fuel pump is used,(not that this includes yerself) it also gets battery voltage from this terminal,....

So,... No, ya can't swap terminals, as they do very different things,....

Exactly, How did ya get these test values,..??

Regarding the "mystery purple wire" on the starter, having researched starter wiring diagrams etc. I found that the "R" terminal isn't always used. I don't have an engine serial number, but studying wiring diagrams in my Seloc manual, the "R" terminal does indeed appear to be unused on any 5.7 litre engines. Having said that, my coil only has one grey wire on the negative terminal, as opposed to the two wires shown in the diagrams, unless there is just one tail at the coil which has another wire spliced in somewhere along the loom? Getting more confused! Thoughts most welcome! Thanks again.
 

hoowahfun

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I would verify the starter was connected back up properly as well as all other connections that were cleaned up. When you replaced the distributor cap did you put the plugs back on in the right order? I think I read you checked that a few times, just throwing it out there. The next thing would be to put the gas tank back in the mix and see if that helps. Could it be a fuel grade issue where the remote tank has a lower grade vs. the boat tank?
 

Bondo

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, my coil only has one grey wire on the negative terminal, as opposed to the two wires shown in the diagrams,

Ayuh,.... There should be 1 wire to the distributor or module, 'n another wire to the tach,...
 

old bird

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I don't know how much fogging oil you used, but I would pull the plugs and spin her over some. may be a stretch, but maybe oil washed/fouled the plugs. and is causing excess compression laboring the starter.
 

sogood

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So, having pretty much exhausted every avenue of investigation, I began to back track and consider even the most unlikely possibilities. One of these was the coil. A new replacement coil, yes, but what had I got to lose? I had kept the old coil and cleaned it up as much as possible, especially the contact inside the tower. It was rusted, and covered in a brown lumpy deposit. I connected it up and ran the water, turned the key and the engine spun much better and gave a few coughs and splutters. I don't have the "best" starting procedure for this engine, having read numerous and often conflicting approaches. Pump the gas 8 times, return the throttle to about one third forward, or pump twice and return throttle to middle position, or pump 5 times and push throttle fully forward etc. etc. Anyway, it was in the full forward position and I turned the key again and it fired up! Woo hoo! I pulled the throttle back immediately and she died. But, she had started!!

​So, a new coil was ordered which arrived this evening. I put it on and the signs are very encouraging, but the battery was weakened and the weather was deteriorating likewise, so tomorrow a fully charged battery will be hooked up and fingers crossed. I feel like I'm out of the woods on this, and will be able to fine tune things once she's up and running. Many thanks for all the inputs and responses. It's always useful to have a different perspective and so avoid the tunnel vision we can sometimes develop when trying to diagnose an issue.

​I still have to sort out the mystery of the missing wires. As mentioned, my coil connections have a lug for the + side with two wires attached, but on the - side there is only one grey wire attached. The remains of another grey wire can be seen inside the lug, which was obviously cut off at some point. Perhaps the grey is spliced in further along, This has to be checked out. But the existing grey wire, which should be my tacho isn't. There is a grey wire on the back of the tacho, but when I test this, it gives continuity with the grey wire on the sender on the right hand side of the thermostat housing, as you look at the front of the engine. On the opposite side of the thermostat is the other sensor (water temp) with one wire attached, Tan but missing a Blue wire as shown in any wiring diagrams I've studied. The temp gauge pegs full when this Tan wire is grounded, so the gauge checks out.

What's the sender on the right hand side for and why would the grey wire from it connect to the tacho? I'll be taking a good look behind the dash at the gauges and see if I can make sense of that particular bowl of spaghetti, but any thought most welcome. Thanks again!
 

Bondo

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What's the sender on the right hand side for and why would the grey wire from it connect to the tacho?

Ayuh,.... That sender is a switch, which goes to ground to trigger the over heat alarm when over heated,...
 

sogood

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Ayuh,.... That sender is a switch, which goes to ground to trigger the over heat alarm when over heated,...

Thanks for that. I don't remember seeing any alarm/buzzer when poking around under the dash, but I'll trace the wire and have a better look see. Thanks again.
 

sogood

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So, she's finally running!! I think it was a combination of things, which always causes difficulties when tracking down problems. Anyway, replacement coil helped enormously, with the engine firing and running on the first turn of the key. Problem was that it would immediately die. I followed starting procedures as per, pump the throttle twice, and set it at about 1/4 to 1/3 but it seems that setting the throttle thus, was flooding the engine. So, two pumps, throttle at 12 O Clock and she fired and ran constantly, very steady, no hesitation, but a bit high. It was idling about 1100 rpm's with no adjustment available on the idle adjustment screw. It doesn't even touch the "stop plate" on the throttle mechanism. The idle mixture screws don't have any effect at all. And when I try to throttle up I get to about 1500 rpm's and it dies. I think it's possibly flooding, although the float has been checked and rechecked.

I've replaced everything, including plugs, leads, thermostat, fuel lines, water separating filter, fuel filter on the carb, fuel filter on the fuel line, fuel pump, vent line, rotor, etc. etc. so I'm happy to rule those things out. Opening the fuel tank filler doesn't help either. I also rebuilt the carb after cleaning every part of it. I never did anything with the timing and wonder could that be the culprit? The distributor hasn't been moved at all. FWIW it's got the Thunderbolt IV ignition. I've also sorted out the wiring at the tach which was all mixed up and it's now sorted and giving a proper reading. The temp rose nicely to about 145 with steady oil pressure also.

Any thoughts very welcome and a million thanks for the interest and input so far.
 

Bondo

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I followed starting procedures as per, pump the throttle twice, and set it at about 1/4 to 1/3 but it seems that setting the throttle thus, was flooding the engine. So, two pumps, throttle at 12 O Clock and she fired and ran constantly, very steady, no hesitation, but a bit high. It was idling about 1100 rpm's with no adjustment available on the idle adjustment screw. It doesn't even touch the "stop plate" on the throttle mechanism. The idle mixture screws don't have any effect at all. And when I try to throttle up I get to about 1500 rpm's and it dies. I think it's possibly flooding, although the float has been checked and rechecked.
I also rebuilt the carb after cleaning every part of it.

Ayuh,.... You Still have a Carb problem,....

Motors runnin' 1500 rpms don't flood out when given throttle, they rev up,....
Unless there's not enough gas to rev up,...

The idle air screws ain't doin' nothin', 'cause it ain't anywhere near Idlin',...
The cable should be pushin' the linkage enough so the idle screw sits firmly on it's stop,....

Carbs have an idle circuit, a mid-range, 'n Wot circuits, as well as the choke, 'n accelerator pump,...

Donno where ya went wrong, but yer carb is afu,....
 

sogood

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Thanks for that. After warming up to operating temperature I'm idling around 900 rpm , still too high I think for the mixture screws to have any effect? I've adjusted the throttle cable to it's limit and still the plate doesn't meet the idle screw. Even removed the throttle cable and still no joy.
When I throttle up "manually" with cable disconnected it rises to about 1400 rpm and then I get a "whoosh" sucking sound into the carb. Sounds like it's sucking air but little else. But it's running and that's a good place to start from. Do you think timing might be a factor or would you think it's being starved of fuel? The float is set as per specs and the bowl has fuel in it. Any thoughts welcome and thanks again.
 

biggjimm

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I had my quadrajet apart 3 times before I got all the junk out of the idle circuits. This ethanol fuel is horrible on carbs.

FWIW, you have to be careful when hooking up a portable fuel tank with the primer bulb as it's possible to pump that bulb too vigorously & force fuel past the needle & seat valve & flood the engine.

How's the engine spinning over now? Faster? Just because a new starter tests out on the bench doesn't mean it can handle the task of spinning the engine properly. Especially a tight new rebuilt engine.

Good luck & double check the complete idle circuits in that carb. Follow along as they go from the bottom plate up to the top & back down to the fuel well/jet area & you may find they're still plugged.
Jim.
 

sogood

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Thanks for the input. I'm not using a portable tank. New fuel lines from filler to new pump, all steel lines cleaned out. New water separator and inline filter and new filter on the carb. We dont have the ethanol issues here in Ireland ( but $7 a gallon!) .
She's spinning fine insofar as she fires up pretty much immediately. I don't know how much more I can clean the carb. Going to look at the timing today. Thanks again.
 

sogood

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Good luck & double check the complete idle circuits in that carb. Follow along as they go from the bottom plate up to the top & back down to the fuel well/jet area & you may find they're still plugged.
Jim.


So I took your advice Jim and pulled the air horn off, again. I reset the float, again and found I had to clean the passages that the float needles sit into. Blowing air into one caused a decent stream of fuel to shoot upwards through one of the little "tubes" beside it. But on the opposite side, nothing at all. So, lots of soaking with carb cleaner, gentle poking and loosening up the white chalky deposits below the needle seat, and I eventually got a good clear blast of air through it, blowing lots of crud free in the process. I also removed the seats themselves and cleaned them up too.

​I put some fuel into the bowl, buttoned everything back down, turned the key (after running the blower for ten minutes!) and she fired right up. Idling well and most importantly, I can now rev her up without stalling. I didn't go beyond 1500 rpm's as I'm running on muffs, which might explain why my mixture screws aren't doing too much? I've read that idle mixture should be set on the water, with the engine in drive, and the boat tied up. Under load in other words. I'm waiting on a timing light so that I can fine tune that and hopefully I'll be well on the way to a sweet running beast. Thanks for the suggestions and inputs.
 

biggjimm

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Good deal. Hopefully when you get her on the lake she'll run out great.

Those little idle circuits can be a bear sometimes. Even after soaking in carb cleaner overnight & half the day I had to run a fine wire in there & kind of drill that junk out.

No ethanol, you're lucky on that one. I can't find a place within 30 miles that has ethanol free fuel this year.

Good luck & good boating.
Jim.
 
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