Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

waymerk

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I have a 83, 17 foot bass boat.. I removed the stringers & floor.. Been reading, watching & called my supplier with questions on the best way to rebuild.. I'm replacing the stringers with 3/4 ABX & 5/8 on the floor.. I've see, read & been told a dozen ways to proceed.. I understand poly & mat work best together, also that epoxy is better.. I plan on keeping the boat and want to do it right. I also understand the fibers in mat are suspended in epoxy not activated. Supplier suggested epoxy with a layer of mat- 1 layer 1708 and tab to hull for stringers and poly with 1 layer of mat on floor tabbed in with 1708 to cap.. yet that's where the problem looks like it started... Really liking the epoxy thing over poly from what I've learned and like I said I plan to keep the boat a long time.. I just don't want to do this again (not on this boat anyways).. My questions are.. - will i get better long term protection with mat & epoxy as first layer on stringers or poly & mat.. and also for the flooring? Just want to use the best and if poly is inferior in was to epoxy I rather use epoxy but not if the bonding isn't as good with the mat.. also tabbing the floor with poly & 1708 is it as good as with epoxy? I know epoxy over poly but not poly over epoxy.. I guess my main concern is that first layer of mat with epoxy, if it's not designed to work together (as a rule) should I forget the mat and just use all cloth and epoxy throughout the job.. from what I understand mat helps poly between layers of cloth but not necessary with epoxy.. I don't have any real tight curves, pretty straight forward. Also, I plan to cloth the back of the floor and apply more the 1 layer to the to as suggested by supplier. would like to use multi layers of 6oz on floor with epoxy and tab to cap with 1708 and use all epoxy... Any suggestions and help would be so greatly appreciated.. this is my first time with fiberglass and i know there are a lot of smart people out here.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

iBoatsWelcom.jpg


If you decide to go the Epoxy route using Mat is totally unecessary. Epoxy contains binders that makes the resin a much more solid mass once cured. Poly on the other hand requires the fibers in the mat to assist it in becoming a cohesive mass of material once the styrene breaks down the fibers in the mat. Your boat is made from poly and Poly would be totally fine to restore your boat with. It's up to you what you want to use. There are pros and cons to either. I prefer Poly due to the fact it sets up quicker and there for allows me to get the repairs done much faster and with less "Baby Sitting" Epoxy can take several hours between layups and on vertical surfaces this causes a lot of issues at times. You will not use 1708 if you use Epoxy. It has mat stitched to the back of it. You only use Cloth when using epoxy. The amount of strength needed in the layup will determine the oz of cloth required. For your boat as described I'd say 8 - 17 oz cloth should be sufficient with epoxy. If you go with Poly then 1.5 oz mat and 1708 Biaxial would be perfect. The first link in my signature below has drawings and info on how to install stringers, transoms and decks using poly

WelcomeAboard2-1.jpg
 

DeepBlue2010

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

You supplier’s best interest is to maximize the order dollar amount. I wouldn’t take my advice from a supplier if I were you; their incentive makes their advice questionable at best. Don’t confuse yourself with so many resins and FG material. I would use the 700 Vinyl Ester resin from Polyester Resins. This resin is all you need and it is a perfect compromise between poly and epoxy. Should you choose to go with epoxy still (for whatever reason) don’t use CSM with epoxy resin. The binder material that keeps the pieces together doesn’t dissolve in epoxy as it does in poly. Besides, CSM has no strength to it. It is used with poly to promote adhesion to the core material (e.g. plywood). You don’t have this problem with epoxy; it is glue by and in itself. Biaxial material like 1708 has its epoxy equivalent (the same material without CSM layer) like the DB170 here..
Specialty Fabrics use this type of material instead if you decide to go with epoxy.
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Thanks Guys... that's 1 of the things that confused me.. I was told to use epoxy in areas of structural integrity and poly for cosmetic. But also have heard I will be doing this again sooner with poly.. Man.. to much research not always the best approach I guess... Then if I go with unwaxed poly I will use cloth with mat between layers and 1708 to tab out? Thx 4 the links I'll be sure 2 check them out... But it sounds like you'd go poly all the way?
 

Woodonglass

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

I would. Most of the guys here on the forum go with Poly, not all but most. The vinylester is good stuff, a bit more pricey but good stuff. In your case I truly believe the Normal unwaxed laminating poly resin from USC will work just fine.
 

DeepBlue2010

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

yes, that is basically what I am suggesting. Poly is not doomed to fail as the phrase (you will be doing it again soon if you use poly) suggests. Poor preparation and/or application is the reason for poly to fail. The resin I am using (700 Vinyl Ester) is a very good resin, if you prep the glass well (grind and wash with Acetone before application), prep the wood well (pre saturate with resin mixed at 1-1.5%) and apply well (Not resin rich and no air bubbles) you should be set.
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

yes, that is basically what I am suggesting. Poly is not doomed to fail as the phrase (you will be doing it again soon if you use poly) suggests. Poor preparation and/or application is the reason for poly to fail. The resin I am using (700 Vinyl Ester) is a very good resin, if you prep the glass well (grind and wash with Acetone before application), prep the wood well (pre saturate with resin mixed at 1-1.5%) and apply well (Not resin rich and no air bubbles) you should be set.

Thanks, guess I'm going to use your suggestions. Your help is very much appreciated.. think I'll use the vinyl only because I plan on keeping her a long time as I said and worth a few extra dollars... now to get grinding.. thx again
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

I would. Most of the guys here on the forum go with Poly, not all but most. The vinylester is good stuff, a bit more pricey but good stuff. In your case I truly believe the Normal unwaxed laminating poly resin from USC will work just fine.

Thanks for the help I'm convinced... Like your diagrams, help confirm what I thought was the right way... Happy boating my friend.
 

DeepBlue2010

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

You're welcome! Best of luck to you.
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Here's some pics of where I started and where I am now... decided to remove the cap and do the stringers and I'm assuming the transom is gone also, so lets do it right with all the help I found here.. I was hoping to get my feel wet on my first project but, looks like I'm jumping in head first...




 

DeepBlue2010

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

You got a decent project ahead of you. One thing at a time and a little by little every day and you will be done before you know it. I am so looking forward to go back to my project. Two surgeries on each arm and intensive physical therapy schedule are keeping me away from my garage, tools and my boat project. Best of luck to you.
 

swadeab

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Another thing to consider, epoxy has years of shelf life. If you have supplies close by or if this project isn't going to sit for months at a time (which isn't unusual on stuff like this), then that is not a problem. But buy a bunch of poly, then get busy with life for 6 months you'll be buying it again...and again when the last batch crystallizes. If you can only work in spurts and don't have supplies close by, it's something to consider and will easily make up the epoxy price difference....if that's a concern. And speaking as a newb with just a few projects under my belt, one thing about the epoxy is you can really screw up on something structural due to inexperience and it's tenacity will make up for it....but like others said you don't need it here. I tend to use epoxy for non visual stuff (as i prefer gelcoat), simply because I can start something and life may get in the way for a few months and the 1/2, 3/4 containers go bad, so i just started using epoxy. I buy poly,etc right when i know i'm going to work on something that i'll be shooting gelcoat over.
 

jigngrub

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Here's some pics of where I started and where I am now... decided to remove the cap and do the stringers and I'm assuming the transom is gone also, so lets do it right with all the help I found here.. I was hoping to get my feel wet on my first project but, looks like I'm jumping in head first...

Dammit man!!! Looks like somebody sewed up a Billy goat's butt up with a grapevine!!!:facepalm:

I sure am glad you've decided to restore this boat and do it right, no boat should ever look like that!


You'll never have to do this again if you;ll take care of your boat after you fix her up, and I know you will after all the time and money you're going to be putting into her. Keep your boat covered or garaged when not in use. A trailered covered boat will last many times longer than one left tied to a dock. Exposure to the elements is what kills a boat, mainly rain, snow, ice, and sun.

If you're going to keep your boat covered, make sure the cover doesn't leak so your boat can stay dry on the inside when not in use.

Using a deck finish other than carpet will also extend the life of a boat and keep it looking newer longer, carpet absorbs and retains water that will eventually decompose your boat and promotes mildew and mold growth.

Pulling the bilge plug after every trip to see if your boat is taking on any water is a good thing too, and leave the plug out to ensure bilge drainage during storage in case water does find a way through your cover.

A deck drain that either empties into the bilge or directly out of the transom is another good thing to have so any water that happens to find it's way into your boat has an exit.
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Yeah, someone really did a bang up job on her. I been a mariner many years and am kind of anal about my stuff. always flushed, covered and drained.. I do plan to install a floor drain that drains through the transom, don't want any unnecessary water in the bilge.. and the carpet I decided to remove the day I bought it (knowing it was a project boat) and gel coat all the deck. Never thought carpet was a good Idea in a fishing boat unless it snaps in.. Looks like Andy (handy Andy) wet to Homedepot and bought a bunch of construction foam either to help support the floor or to replace what might have been there.. I don't know it the manufacture used foam in it or not and I can't find any info about that... Do u think I will need to foam her? Not to cool about that either this stuff was full of water.. would rather omit it if possible.. Cap is coming off this week if I get a couple days off. Then I can get a look at the transom..
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Good point to keep in mind... USC is right here in Florida and I get my supplies in a couple days.. I have worked with a lot of other types of pre & post catalyzed products and worked with products like Corion etc. and a strong background in millworking professionally so I'm hoping fiberglass will be just an adjustment of application... I been watching and reading everything I can get my hands on and with all the great help here I'm feeling pretty confident.. BTY the videos posted by Frissco Boater have been a great visual aid..
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

You got a decent project ahead of you. One thing at a time and a little by little every day and you will be done before you know it. I am so looking forward to go back to my project. Two surgeries on each arm and intensive physical therapy schedule are keeping me away from my garage, tools and my boat project. Best of luck to you.

Sorry to here about your problems... I know what it's like to be on the bench... But please feel free to tag along with be until your back at it... I appreciate your help, experience and knowledge.. Good luck with your therapy and lets get back at time my friend...
 

jigngrub

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

I don't know it the manufacture used foam in it or not and I can't find any info about that... Do u think I will need to foam her? Not to cool about that either this stuff was full of water.. would rather omit it if possible..

Floatation foam is one of our best friends in a boat and I love mine. My boat has lots of foam and I like it that way:

One of these days I'm going to add a little more foam just to straighten and tidy up the factory installation.The foam in my boat is factory installed and 15 years old, it's dry as a bone because I keep my boat covered when not in use and the bilge drain plug out.

But it's not like my bilge and foam have never seen water. I am like a lot of boaters and have forgotten to put the bilge drain plug in my boat before launching more than once... ok, several times. My floatation foam floats my boat so well that water never comes up through the deck drain so I don't notice the plug is out and I'll fish all day with the bilge plug out and the bilge full of water. Then at the end of the day when I pull the boat out of the water on the trailer all the bilge water comes shooting out of the bilge drain like a fire hose and I realize what I did. My boat actually floats better than this with the plug out:
Lund Boat Floatation Video - YouTube


2 part expanding urethane foam is very water resistant and this is from the USComposites site:

14. Is this foam water resistant?

Yes, but with the following caveat. The foams that we sell are considered closed-cell, which means that each cell that makes up the foam structure is completely closed off from surrounding cells which prevents it from acting like a sponge. It is completely safe for this foam to be in contact with water for hours/days/weeks and even months with no adverse effects. However, it should never be submerged in contact with water permanently. Over a period of years the water contact can begin to soften the foam and cause it to lose its closed-cell status. This foam is designed primarily to be used as an insurance policy in case of damage/holes that could cause a vessel to lose buoyancy. Pinhole sized openings would essentially have no effect on the foam since the amount of exposure is so minimal but you should always make repairs as soon as possible to keep the foam effectiveness as good as possible. This will be the case with all after market closed-cell polyurethane foams and even manufacturer installed foams.

You can read more info about this foam here:
Frequently Asked Questions - General

It takes a long time of neglect and abuse to waterlog/saturate the foam in a boat, and when the foam does become wet it isn't the foams fault or the boats fault... it's the owners fault for not taking care of his boat.

Floatation foam actually does double duty in a lot of todays boats. Manufacturers found out that they can delete some of the hull and deck framing and use the floatation foam for support instead, so some boats are actually weaker if the foam is taken out and not replaced. This is especially true for boats that use 1/2" thick decking, and you can feel the difference when you walk on 1/2" decking with and without foam. The deck will feel very solid in a boat with 1/2" decking supported by floatation foam, the 1/2" decking without foam support will be bouncy/springy and loud. The foam adds support to the hull in the same way.

This is a little list of the pro's and cons of floatation foam I made up recently:

Pros

#1. It could save your life and the lives of your passengers... just this one benefit outweighs all of the pitfalls added together and then multiplied by 10.

#2. Your boat won't sink to the bottom of the lake if there's an accident or emergency.

#3. Floatation will give you additional support for your hull and deck making it stronger.

#4. Floatation foam seals the inside of your hull in case of a breach... if you knock a hole in your hull by hitting a partially submerged log the foam will block the hole off from the inside and your boat won't take on water and you'll be able to get yourself and your passengers back to the launch without sinking.

#5. Boats that sink to the bottom leave the owner liable for EPA pollution fines from spilled gas and oil, these fine can be hefty in certain areas and they include the cost of cleaning up the spill.

#6. Your boat will be quieter on the water, floatation foam is a sound attenuation product.

Cons

#1. If you neglect your boat and leave it exposed to the elements (like you're really going to do that after all of the hard work you've put into it) your foam can become saturated/waterlogged adding weight to your boat and promoting rot below deck... but, it takes a long time for floatation foam to saturate... were talking about a period of years of constant exposure.

End of cons.

Whether or not you choose to put floatation foam back in your boat is up to you and you don't have to do it if you don't want to, but I'd never own a boat without it.
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Hello again guys, Got another question 4 all you experts. My bass boat has these little, mmm, I'll call them stringers against the hull they are about 1" square wood wrapped in glass.. I can't see them offering and thing structural and wondered what is the purpose for them? Here is my Question--- My forward raised deck has 2 storage compartments in it that are open to the hull and you could see the foam under the floor (before I removed it) and I know there will be water getting in there from time to time.. My thought was to replace these (stringers) with a piece of PVC tubing that runs from the forward compartments to the bilge under the new foam to give the water a place to drain and not get into the foam.. I was thinking I would glass the in place of these little wooden strips and glass in the storage compartments to encapsulate the foam under the floor as to keep it dry.. looks like the manufacturer left the center of the hull UNfoamed to give the water in the bow a place to drain to the bilge... What do you think???? I attached a pic showing the "stringers" as I'm calling them so you can hopefully see what I'm talking about.... Thanks for any advice.....

 

Woodonglass

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Those are probably reinforcements for your Strakes in the hull. Look on the outside. Is that where the ridge/strake is?
 

waymerk

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Re: Newbee here questions with stringers & floor replacement

Yep. that's where they are... do u think that 1" piece of wood could be replaced with PVC tubing glassed in so to give me a place to control and direct the water to the bilge? I can't see that strip of wood adding any structural integrity... I'd guess all the straight from the glass... Also I plan to glass the stringers and the "strake" support in with 1708... I just can't see any other way to control any water from the bow to the stern and not expose the foam... BTW this bass boat isn't foamed from bow to stern just under the floor. Thanks for the help.
 
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