Motor draining battery

[MickLovin]

Re: Motor draining battery

sorry posted twice

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Motor draining battery

The reason you are getting a low ohm reading is because it is going through the starter motor, which is just a coil of wire to ground. test voltage between the starter motor terminal and the battery terminal on the solenoid, if you get a voltage you have a bad solenoid as it should be open circuit between these untill you start. The best way to test your solenoid is with everything disconnected off it then between the large terminals where the main battery cable goes and the starter motor goes it should be open circuit and the two small terminals one being ground and the other the start cable this should be almost a dead short maybe 1 ohm as when it has power the coil pulls in the contact which closes and supplies power to your starter.
One quick question, are both batteries in the recharging circuit?

Electrically you only have a starter motor and solenoid as load (excepting cdi and coil at start) and the rest is charging, you haven't got anything connected to your start switch directly on the on side, that could also drain your battery or have a short affecting your charging.

Seems suspect though you can't get a good reading on your rectifier/regulator, virtually tells me there, that it is your rectifier and the key word here regulator. And yes to your question about a faulty regulator/rectifier draining a battery. Nothing to charge a battery and having a possible short in the rectifier regulator system could possibly draw current.
The Valve Wizard

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Motor draining battery

+1 what MickLovin says. Most likely a bad Rectifier/regulator causing your battery drain problem.

 

[el_bany2005]

Re: Motor draining battery

Thank you guys for sharing your knowledge and time. I will replace the rectifier/regulator and post results. Any good website with the best prices on this part?

 

[CharlieB]

Re: Motor draining battery

Test the rectifier with your Ohm meter.

Disconnect all wires. Connect the ohmeter + to the regulator output, then Test each yellow with the meter - lead. Note your readins.

Now reverse the meter leads so - is on the rect output and test each yellow input with the +. Note your readings.

You should have continuity in one direction and none with the leads reversed.

Anything different then the rect is done.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: Motor draining battery

Today I also check resistance on the starter solenoid terminal. Is it normal for the solenoid terminal that connects to the starter motor to have a low resistance to GND (1.5 ohms) when everything is OFF. I know that internally that terminal will connect to the battery (+) when the ignition key is turned, but I would think that it would be an open circuit (high resistance to GND) when everything is OFF.

I am trying to identify if I have a combination of causes for my charging issue. In the end there is not to many components in that path:
stator windings (AC) => rectifier/regulator(DC) => + terminal on the starter solenoid => + post on the battery.

There are two main terminals (load ckt) for the starter solenoid and two aux or control terminals for the control coil (controlled by the ignition switch). If you are referring to the two main terminals and one of them having a low resistance to ground, it is perfectly normal if you are reading the load ckt terminal (one that connects directly to the starter motor) AND NOT THE SOURCE CKT TERMINAL (one that connects directly to the battery's + terminal.

The best way to test a rectifier/regulator is through "hot checks" meaning while engine is running, check voltage from the two yellow (?) wires from the stator using AC setting on the voltmeter (VM) and you should get a reading between 16~20 VAC with rpm at least in the 1000 range. And then reading the output of the rectifier/reg using DC setting on the VM and the reading should be at least 13.5 ~ 16.0 VDC. With the engine off, you should be able to read the battery voltage from the rect/reg output terminals if not, then it tells me the charging ckt breaker is tripped.

 

[I`mNotMe]

Re: Motor draining battery

If I remember correctly (and cannot remember exactly where / older age thing - LOL!!!).... The Force 120 engine's RPM must be above 2,000-2,200 RPM range to produce enough charge to charge the battery. At idle and fast idle RPMs, the engine is running off the battery. And above that 2,200 RPM "sweet spot", it produces enough output to charge the battery. I cannot remember where I read it. But I always remember this tip when cruising the shoreline at too low of RPM (for too long). For me, I simply Park & Tow my boat with a portable 2.5W solar panel connect to its onboard battery. Simply disconnect its charge wire "connector" and the toss the glass solar panel into back to Tow Vehicle. And when boat isn't in use, I reconnect its little solar panel and either lay flat in bottom of boat (when towing) or hang off the side of boat (when parked in storage). Since using a little Solar panel, my Force 120 never had low voltage battery problems again. This tip might work for you as well

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Motor draining battery

Check your manual, it will tell you what is it's charging rate and at what RPM, as I said my Chrysler starts charging at 1000 RPM, and 10 amps at 5500 RPM (WOT), this may not be the same for a force as mentioned by I'mNotME, I, as I'mNotMe, use a solar panel and always charge my battery with a 2 - 8 amp charger, normally at 2 amps. But if your battery has dropped a cell or isn't 12.6 volts at full charge there may be a battery problem. Not saying you have a battery problem but always easy to check at your local auto store, let them do a load test (normally free in Oz). Still think it is your regulator, but you can use a volt meter to check you circuit breaker when running, one prong to one side of c/breaker black prong of vm to ground = 12v, same on other side of c/breaker = 12v, if not a tripped breaker, reset it, or faulty. You can check while off with an ohm meter across the c/breaker terms, = dead short. The reason I test both ohms and volts is due to the fact you can have a high resistant contact, this will also cause a volt drop across the contact.
Let us know how ya going with it Feedback is great.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: Motor draining battery

"If I remember correctly (and cannot remember exactly where / older age thing - LOL!!!).... The Force 120 engine's RPM must be above 2,000-2,200 RPM range to produce enough charge to charge the battery. At idle and fast idle RPMs, the engine is running off the battery."

The truth of the matter is that even without a battery you can pull start these old Force engines. And this is because the charging ckt is totally isolated from the ignition ckt coming off the stator. This goes to say the above comment is totally out of line. And yes at 1000 RPM you can start seeing AC voltage in the range above 13 Vac from the two input yellow wires of the rectifier. Although you can also put it in fast idle around 1500~2000 RPM just to make sure.

 

[I`mNotMe]

Re: Motor draining battery

.

See post #7 (top paragraph) within: http://forums.iboats.com/force-chrysler-outboards/charging-problems-91-120hp-force-552934.html

Is this historical post (and its top paragraph) correct?

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Motor draining battery

Quote Originally Posted by TwoFish View Post
Welcome to Iboats orignagah,

Sounds to me like the “red” charging wire on the regulator is not connected to the positive battery terminal for some reason (incorrect wiring, broken wire or corrosion). Could also be a bad ground as well. This will burn out your regulator as it has nowhere to send the charge. NEVER DISCONNECT THE BATTERY WHIST THE MOTOR IS RUNNING.

The easiest way to test this that I know is to use a multi-meter set to ohms or continuity. You need to test that the wires connect to the battery. Disconnect the boat battery to prevent frying the multi-meter if you ground the probe by mistake.

The red wire usually goes from the regulator to the positive supply side of the starter solenoid where it connects to the main positive cable from the battery. If you place one probe of the meter on the positive terminal of the main battery cable, at the battery end, and the other probe on the connector the red wire on the engine loom that the connector red wire from the regulator goes into you should get a closed circuit (0.000 ohms). If you get “0.L” you have an open circuit. If you get a above 0.000 ohms you have resistance in the circuit (corrosion ,bad connection). If someone has been working on the started solenoid it is easy to connect the red wire from the regulator to the wrong stud on the solenoid when putting it back together.

You can test the grounding on the regulator the same way. One probe on the main battery cable connector at the negative battery end and the other end on the loom connector at the regulator end (BLACK wire).

On these test you need to test the wires on the engine loom not the wires on the regulator.

The regulator should restrict the voltage to about 14.5 volts. 16 volts sounds too high. Not sure what they read if run on an open circuit. 16 volts is normal for a rectifier. The part number you supplied shows it as a regulator as it doesn't regulate the volts. Either way it should be charging your battery.

Hope this makes sense. If not let me know if it is difficult to follow and I try to explain it better with some photos.

Good luck.

If someone has been working on the started solenoid it is easy to connect the red wire from the regulator to the wrong stud on the solenoid when putting it back together.


This is where I would start looking for a wiring error.

This in red was posted by Roscoe on another thread, could be something else to look at as well.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: Motor draining battery

.

See post #7 (top paragraph) within: http://forums.iboats.com/force-chrysler-outboards/charging-problems-91-120hp-force-552934.html

Is this historical post (and its top paragraph) correct?

The mention about blown fuse preventing the motor from running or anything from running is very subjective. Technically, the charging system is protected by a ckt bkr and the same holds true for the T&T protection. The starter motor doesn't have any protection except for the neutral interlock switch preventing the motor from starting while in gear.

Here's a wiring diagram of the motor in question on the previous thread. Note the stator present three ckts. The first two are the ignition power ckts while the 3rd one is the charging ckt which connects to the rectifier. The only reason a shorted rectifier will prevent the engine from running is because the ckts are closely situated in the stator winding but NOT ELECTRICALLY CONNECTED.

In fact, rectifiers seldom shorts, instead mostly end up opened when they burn out. Hence, most of the time you cannot tell your rectifier is burnt until you have a discharged battery caused not by the motor ignition ckt but by aux equipment.

Note the ignition ckt on the bottom part of the diagram DOES NOT HAVE ANY DIRECT CONNECTION TO THE BATTERY OR CHARGING CKT. And this is because it requires none to start or run or to keep it running. Thus making the engine start using pull rope.

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Motor draining battery

Thanks Jiggz for bringing into play the manual, I have had a rectifier open circuit, and all I was getting due to having a good battery charged was 12 volts, I replaced my rectifier and now have a constant 12- 13 volts on my gauge that is its normally around 12.6 - 12.8 on my quality digital Multimeter (Fluke) before I changed out the rectifier I had 12 volts via the gauge and and around 11.8 via multimeter. On mine it did seem to affect performance, but I am not positive with that statement. As mine doesn't have coils I am unsure if this makes a difference with rectifier problems and performance. Anyway Thanks Jiggz again for clarifying a few things.

 

[el_bany2005]

Re: Motor draining battery

Test with multimeter on Ohms setting: Here are resistance readings Red to yellow1=1.3Meg , Red to yellow2=40.3K
yellow1 to red=0.7Meg , yellow2 to Red=45K.

However if I do it with the multimeter on the diode check : (+) on any yellow and (-) on red wire I get a reading, but no reading when I reverse the leads.
Another test with the multimeter on diode check: (-) on chasis, (+) on any yellow wire get a 1.8 reading, no reading when I reverse the leads.

 

[el_bany2005]

Re: Motor draining battery

Test with multimeter on Ohms setting: Here are resistance readings Red to yellow1=1.3Meg , Red to yellow2=40.3K
yellow1 to red=0.7Meg , yellow2 to Red=45K.

However if I do it with the multimeter on the diode check : (+) on any yellow and (-) on red wire I get a reading, but no reading when I reverse the leads.
Another test with the multimeter on diode check: (-) on chasis, (+) on any yellow wire get a 1.8 reading, no reading when I reverse the leads.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Motor draining battery

You can't really get a valid reading on a Regulator/Rectifier with a diode or resistance check, unless everything checks "open" or a "short". If you had a simple full wave bridge rectifier and nothing else like on the earlier Force/Chrysler motors, you would be able to get a valid test with the meter. Since this is a combination Regulator and Rectifier, you may get some unusual readings.

Quickest way to test is to make sure you have the proper A.C. input voltage, and check the D.C. output voltage.

 

[Jiggz]

Re: Motor draining battery

Thanks Jiggz for bringing into play the manual, I have had a rectifier open circuit, and all I was getting due to having a good battery charged was 12 volts, I replaced my rectifier and now have a constant 12- 13 volts on my gauge that is its normally around 12.6 - 12.8 on my quality digital Multimeter (Fluke) before I changed out the rectifier I had 12 volts via the gauge and and around 11.8 via multimeter. On mine it did seem to affect performance, but I am not positive with that statement. As mine doesn't have coils I am unsure if this makes a difference with rectifier problems and performance. Anyway Thanks Jiggz again for clarifying a few things.

You are welcome. I just want to emphasize another thing about voltage reading from the rectifier output. If the rectifier is burnt open (most likely) and you decide to take voltage reading directly from its two output terminals (red and black wires), assuming the ckt bkr is not tripped, you will actually read the battery voltage. This is regardless whether the engine is running or not. This is because the output positive wire (red) is directly connected to the battery through the ckt bkr and the source terminal of the starter solenoid which is directly connected to the battery. The same holds true even if the rectifier is good but with the motor OFF or NOT running. Of course, if the motor is running and the rectifier is good, then you will read the charging voltage.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Motor draining battery

Just so you know, some meters in the ohm setting don't have enough voltage to forward bias a diode so you won't be able to measure if a diode is conducting. Generally those meters also have a diode check setting.

 

[MickLovin]

Re: Motor draining battery

Just so you know, some meters in the ohm setting don't have enough voltage to forward bias a diode so you won't be able to measure if a diode is conducting. Generally those meters also have a diode check setting.

That's why you use and buy quality like a Fluke

 

[CharlieB]

Re: Motor draining battery

That 45K reverse reading confirms the rectifier is done.

One diode in the rectifier is open, allowing a small AC voltage to reach the battery as well as an amount of DC voltage. You can knock out two diodes and still have a half-wave rectifier making some DC voltage and give a small amount of battery charging.

There is two problems with this, low battery charging, and battery drain while not running, which the rectifier is allowing an amount of battery voltage to feed-back into the stator when not running, turning the stator into a large heating coil.

Replace the rectifier.