Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

[tommays]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

buy the way at 12 volts a battery is pretty dead <br /><br /><br /> these things crack me up you have one of the leading Tohatsu sellers giveing you free and correct advise and you think going over his head is going to give you a better answere because you dont like it<br /><br />tommays

 

[nevd]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Originally posted by Dave Wright:<br /> I'm very close to buying a Tohatsu 50TLDI. Ny intent is mainly based on having had such excellent performance from an old 40 horse Tohatsu 2 stroke. <br /><br />As I say, I'm very pleased with my previous experience with Tohatsu, and have touted the product whenever a discussion came up, but lack of satisfactory explanation for this battery issue could make me think twice.<br /><br />Dave Wright

Dave, I have had similar experiences to you having owned 3 Tohatsu motors in the past. Incidentally the 50TLDI I have referred to in this post is not mine and I am also following the experience of this 50TLDI to decide what to purchase next time myself. <br /><br />For the benefit of others who are watching this post, I have checked the Exide marine website and found that recommended battery for up to 300 HP outboards and inboards is smaller than Tohatsu are nominating, and up to 750 HP inboards, Exide only specify the next size up from Tohatsu's spec for 50 HP.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Let me try this one last time. Direct Injection outboards, regardless of brand, require a battery with a higher CCA rating than you would find on an engine in comparable hp that is not a Direct Injection outboard. The fuel injection system requires a minimum amount of current that many of the old, standard 70 amp marine batteries are not able to deliver. It's just that simple. And no, you cannot start a direct injection engine, regardless of brand without a battery. In theory, you may be able to start a direction injection with a battery that has less than a full charge, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. While that is certainly not a plus to the design, I really don't think it's much of a drawback either. There are a variety of features and benefits on engines that may cost you something else. Direct Injection is just the next improvement over traditional 2-cycle outboards. It's not perfect. It's just more reliable, more fuel efficient, easy starting, has a smoother idle, less vibration, quiet, weighs less than 4-stks, has better hole shot, does not smoke and hey, lets not forget, should cost less to maintain and repair. Of course when you weigh all of that against it's inability to start with a dead battery........Maybe two batteries in a boat would be a solution? Naw, no one has ever done anthing as radical as that.<br /><br />P.S. Tohatsu does not want consumers tinkering with or troubleshooting TLDI engines. They really are too complicated for the average consumer to self adjust/repair. They put a 3 + 1 year warranty on TLDI engines so that you will feel all safe and snug. Have a little faith in what they say you need to have to operate it.

 

[khc1970]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Not trying to contradict you Elvin, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that the Etec can rund without a battery, ie. dead, dead battery.<br /><br />P.S you are lucky, we only get 12 month warrantee, + 12 further months on parts over here.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

I was referring to Mercury's Optimax, Tohatsu/Nissan's TLDI and Yamaha's HPDI. While I have seen the posts on Iboats claming that Etec's do not have to have a battery to run, I honestly to not have any idea whether or not that is a factual statement. The only feedback I have received, personally, on the Etecs has been limited to the 2-cylinder ones with people complaining about them being dogs. In all fairness that seems to be the only complaint so far. I have never asked anyone about whether or not they tried to use one with a dead battery or without a battery at all. It does not seem reasonable to me to think that their battery requirements are any different on their version of DFI, but as I have zero practical time with one I'll reserve judgement until someone, who is in a position to know, actually tells me. Etec is a newer design and anything is possible.

 

[ziemann]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Dave and nevd-<br /><br />Don't shoot the messenger. I am sorry you both are dissappointed. <br /><br />Both of you have had Tohatsu experiences in the past and sound like happy customers. You both know that Tohatsu/ Nissan has built its reputation on reliability. As Elvin listed, there are several reasons to look at and purchase a TLDI. You may find that this battery issue is a deal breaker for you- for me it is a minor issue- for others like you it may be a major issue. <br /><br />Yes, it is true, that without battery power, you are dead in the water. For me, I always have the spare in my trolling motor as a backup to jump start and at the end of the day have an onboard charger. For me, I am paranoid about this kind of stuff, so I am extremely careful- and if I do get caught with my pants down, I have a backup. <br /><br />There are several benefits to a TLDI- including price as compared to an E-Tec. I also don't know if E-Tec has an advantage over TLDI on this battery issue. But, all of the others including Opti's and HPDI's all require a large battery. Weigh ALL of the benefits and disadvantages and prioritize what will be the best motor for you.

 

[Dave Wright]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

No dissapointment here. Like nevd, I was looking for specific information rather than generalities, nothing else. I'll have all I need to know shortly. Here's a quick note I got from Garland Reese at Tohatsu America (they've always been very helpful and responsive):<br /><br />Dave,<br />The TLDI is an inductive ignition system which means the battery provides all the power to run the engine. If battery power is not sufficient, first of all it may not start (need 2 revolutions of the flywheel) also the engine will start throwing warning signals at 10 volts and once the battery goes to 9 volts it will not even run. It is critical that this engine has a minimum of a 600 CCA battery 750 MCA battery. I highly recommend to buy or use the highest CCA battery you can find which to my knowledge is a series 24 with 800 CCA and 1000 MCA. Please contact me if you have any further questions. <br /> <br />Garland Lewis <br /><br />What's nice about this response, is that Garland gives a "requirement" followed by a "recomendation." The specific voltage levels versus engine state are real helpful too. <br /><br />Thank you all for your inputs.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

And what's the moral of this story? Use the battery size, as recommended by the manufacturer(or go even higher) and your engine will not have fault lights popping on. That was the first response in this thread. While it's always fun to know " WHY AND HOW THINGS WORK", it is a lot less time consuming to just follow the recommendations of a manufacturer. Hard headed people who refuse to follow recommendations are always the ones with the the most inane problems.

 

[nevd]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Originally posted by Dave Wright:<br /> <br />Dave,<br />The TLDI is an inductive ignition system which means the battery provides all the power to run the engine. If battery power is not sufficient, first of all it may not start (need 2 revolutions of the flywheel) also the engine will start throwing warning signals at 10 volts and once the battery goes to 9 volts it will not even run. <br /> <br />Garland Lewis <br /><br />Thank you all for your inputs.

Dave, Thanks very much for posting this information. This does not however explain to my satisfaction why the TLDI misses at 700RPM idle when battery voltage is 12V minimum after extended power trim useage. It does not miss at 800 or above. Im also interested that nobody has picked up on my reference to shortening the battery leads which by my calculation is more effecive than going from 400 to 800 CCA battery. This was a "trick" I learnt many years ago when I had starting difficulties in very cold weather before I lived in a warm climate. All outboard manufacturers supply long (and too small section) leads to allow consumers flexibility on where their battery is located.<br /><br />The difference between Tohatsu and Etec is the Etec ignition and engine management is powered from the alternator and the Tohatsu (and presumably Merc and Yami based on Internets comments) are battery powered. I thought most if not all manufacturers went to alternator powered ignitions over 20 years ago for reliability and emergency start reasons.<br /><br />I also wish to take this opportunity to thank all contributors to this forum. I have learnt a lot and sorry for upsetting some contributors.

 

[khc1970]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Originally posted by Z-Man MT:<br /> Yes, it is true, that without battery power, you are dead in the water. For me, I always have the spare in my trolling motor as a backup to jump start and at the end of the day have an onboard charger. For me, I am paranoid about this kind of stuff, so I am extremely careful- and if I do get caught with my pants down, I have a backup. <br /><br />There are several benefits to a TLDI- including price as compared to an E-Tec. I also don't know if E-Tec has an advantage over TLDI on this battery issue.

I too play on the safer side, that's why I have 2 batteries set up. Plus if I ever go further off shore, I always carry a powerpack just in case.<br />With all the electric on board, fishfinder, gps, plotter, vhf, lights and most importantly the bighe pump. Fishing at anchor or slow troll will soon drain the battery.

 

[Dave Wright]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

I had to come to a motor decision, so yesterday I bought a new 40 horse Tohatsu Model M40D2EPTOL. That's the old style 40 horse 3 cylinder two stroke, not the TLDI. I got it from my local dealer for a very good price. <br /><br />He operates out of a very small shop and is a gentleman in every respect, so I like supporting him. I bought a tiller steered 40 horse Tohatsu from the same dealer eleven years ago; that engine is still going strong in someone else's boat. <br /><br />With me, it's not a question of Tohatsu quality, I know they're good. But, since I have a small boat, I could have gone with either this motor or the 50 horse TLDI. I realize that there are advantages to the TLDI which I will be forgoing - fuel economy, smoke emission, smoothness at low idle, etc. But for a number of reasons I went with the old model. Weight was one factor in this decision - I figure I would have gained at least 75 pounds with the 50 TLDI and a suitable battery. Another factor was that I simply wanted to get one of the old engines before the import ban next month and possible low inventories of the old engines.<br /><br />I look forward to many hours of trouble free operation with this Tohatsu, just as I had with the previous one. There may be a TLDI for me, but it will be well in the future.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Good choice.

 

[nedsefton]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

I've done a lot of research regarding batteries for the TLDI engines and there is a bunch of confusion (for me anyway). Many of the previous posts are using CCA(cold cranking amps) and Ah(Amperehours) interchangebly when in fact there is little relationship between the two. CCA is the number of amps a battery can produce and sustain for 30 seconds. <br />Ah is the number of cumulative amps a battery can produce over a period of time, often 20 hours, so a 100Ah battery can produce and sustain 5amps for 20 hours. Battery design makes it a difficult compromise to produce a battery with a high CCA number and a high Ah number. Amp hour ratings are often available on deep cycle batteries but rarely used on starting batteries, Tohatsu's web site uses the terms interchangebly and that is very confusing for me.<br /> <br />FROM THE TOHATSU.COM TLDI FAQ:<br />Do I need a special battery to start a TLDI®? <br />Because of the additional power requirements needed for a direct injection, TLDI® motors require you to use a marine battery with the following rating:<br />100AH battery = 600 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA), 750 Marine Cranking Amps (MCA)<br />For users in colder climates, you should use a battery with a rating of: 120AH battery = 700 CCA, 850 MCA<br /><br />Unfortunately 100AH DOES NOT EQUAL 600CCA<br />When I called Tohatsu, more than once, and asked, I was given different answers but no one explained Amp hour requirements. The answer was always a CCA number. When I asked about amp hours, the first time, my question was ignored and the second time I was told amp hours are used in Japan but not in the U.S. so I could ignore them. In both cases I asked for a specific battery recommendation and I was told "Get the biggest CCA battery you can find that will fit your boat." I'm willing to buy what ever battery I need so can anyone recommend a specific battery brand and model that will work with a Tohatsu TLDI motor?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Battery brand names may not be of too much use to you. There are very few actual manufacturers, but there are thousands of different brands. Some 99.99% of brand names are just decals put on by distributers. In the SE U.S. one of the most common labels is "Interstate". A quick visit to their website will give you a list of different marine batteries that are available with high CCA's.

 

[khc1970]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

You're dead right, ah has nothing to do with cca (not sure how is mca related to cca). Ah is how much power it can muscle out steadily. CCA is how much power it can give in one go. <br /><br />On starting, car, boat, generater etc, you want a large cca, especially if you have a large outboard with large flywheel. My 110ah van battery has over 1k cca. The theory being if it can start a Transit diesel van in cold weather, it can start an outboard.<br /><br />I buy the cheaper auto battery, since <br />1) I have 2 battery set up, the auto one is used for starting.<br />2) It carries a 3 years warranty, I make sure I lock up the receipt in the safe and if anything goes wrong, it's back to the shop for a free replacement. Done this once already. Battery costs £65 against a marine one for about £200. For £195 (at the most, presume each battery or any replacement dies on the 1st day of the 4th year) I can power the boat for 9 years.

 

[jshoes52]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

Elvin, I think what Ned2 is getting at is this: if someone were to come in to your shop today and buy a TLDI motor, what battery would you use for the installation? CCA, MCA, ah, brand etc.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum battery capacity for 50TLDI

In Tampa we use a battery labeled United Batteries...I think they are distributed by Superior Battery, who may or may not be the manufacturer. For DI engines they have one that is 950 CCA, weighs 47.7 lbs and retails for $69.99.