MerCruiser update

[muc]

I would say yes..... many of them used to work for me.

The only time I've meet any of them has been at Merc school. One of the engineers was part of the single point drain team. He was a smoker also so we talked during breaks. He was so proud telling me about how it was coming out next year "a real game changer" and went into great detail about how they came up with the design so it would reverse flow and keep it from plugging up.
As he's telling me all this the only thing running through my brain is "oh no, this is going to be a cluster F**k". When I asked if he knew how many engines get stored empty or at most a little cheap pink poured thru them. He said they had done testing to simulate that and it wouldn't be a problem. I guess we know how that turned out.

But I have a lot of admiration for most engineers. I have a few friends in the electronics game and after they told me the time and budget constraints they work under. I now know why it seems like they don't care how hard it is to service. They didn't have the time or the money to give it much thought!
And funny thing, the customers who were engineers or pilots were some of my best customers.

 

[muc]

the issue with the merc manuals is it does not come out and state -100F PG...... so johnny 6-pack grabs -30 RV antifreeze and ends up with a busted block. I pointed that out to a few MC engineers over 20 years ago.....

yes, properly rated PG helps. yes, air does freeze at -471F. however when it comes to winterizing. the merc manuals of yore had the AF as optional. Now to cover their butts, its mandatory. yet, they still do not state -100F PG.

Yes, you only need enough freeze protection for your storage temps. And the latest manual I have still doesn't require antifreeze. But they keep putting out service bulletins about it. I'll have to try and get my hands on a new owners manual and see if they mention it.
But you need the corrosion protection that isn't available in RV antifreeze. That stuff is for water systems.

 

[alldodge]

Fresh water only comment
I'll add, there is no one I trust more around a marine motor more then you @muc but way before AF came into use for marine motors, folks always just drained and they were good for what ever winter thru at them.

Agree good AF is better then no AF for long term. The question is how many years of using air only (all water out) vs filled with correct AF will make a difference in the overall health of the internals of the motor?

 

[Scott Danforth]

The only time I've meet any of them has been at Merc school. One of the engineers was part of the single point drain team. He was a smoker also so we talked during breaks. He was so

If you remember a name, PM me if it's one of the guys that worked for me, I will personally throat punch them

 

[Pmt133]

Add me to the keeping the block filled list... thats what they taught dad at merc school many many years ago and that's how he taught me.

As for engineers.... I'm one (not at merc). I work opposite a few. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Lou C]

I look at it this way; in salt water we try to keep salt off of things by using coatings like Corrosion X, on trailer parts like fasteners and leaf springs. With regular applications this is fairly effective at reducing corrosion. To me filling the engine block with antifreeze with corrosion inhibitors is similar. So far I have not had to replace the block or intake manifold due to corrosion, I did replace the cylinder heads 7 years ago but that was mostly due to overheat damage. So far this engine has done about 20 seasons in salt water. Replaced the exhaust regularly since in salt water this is more or less an expendable component at least the elbows. I do fill the manifolds & block each fall with Sierra PG antifreeze mixed 50/50 with water. That gives freeze protection to -26*F.

 

[muc]

The question is how many years of using air only (all water out) vs filled with correct AF will make a difference in the overall health of the internals of the motor?

I don't know.
But there was a 4.3 that I winterized every year since new for almost 30 years. Kept on a covered lift on one of the cleanest lakes in MN summers and an unheated garage off season. Due to the owners desires and it's remote location, most years was a quick pour down with cheap pink, more then a few years just a drain and no antifreeze. Never saw any problems other then I always had to poke the block holes during draining and every couple of years I would run it up during summerize with the block plugs out to clear out as much rust as I could. And there was always a lot of rust, enough that they would complain about having to clean the driveway after I left so it didn't stain. They sold the boat a couple of years ago and as far as I know it's still in service.

But what I do know is that boats and motors are always changing, trying for less weight, more power, better fuel efficiency. Maybe they changed the alloys in the block? Maybe they started seeing issues with the new FSM? Got tired of people bad mouthing the single point drain? Maybe their just CYA?

1/2 of the reason most bigger dealers in MN (years ago I did a study to find out the break even point for running on antifreeze to protect the block --- it was just under 100 engines back then) is that it's a pretty fool proof way to make sure they're safe. And doesn't require as much knowledge.

The thing that caught my eye was when they put out a second service bulletin about it. This is the first time I can think of that they released 2 SBs on the same subject. They have always revised them. That made me think that this might have some importance.

Is antifreeze needed in older engines? No I don't think so, probably gonna blow up from bad cooling, bad fuel or now a days bad batteries.

 

[muc]

If you remember a name, PM me if it's one of the guys that worked for me, I will personally throat punch them

Sorry but I'm bad with names and faces. When I run into customers away from their boat, I have to ask "what boat do you have" before I can place them.

Funny thing I've found going to the marine training. When I went to classes for forklifts and construction equipment the mechanics would talk hunting, fishing, guns, girls --- in that order. The marine classes? Pretty much boats, boats, boat customers, fishing. Most people I've meet in this industry love boats.

If you could have seen how proud he was of that system, would have guessed it was an work of art!

 

[Scott06]

I don't know.
But there was a 4.3 that I winterized every year since new for almost 30 years. Kept on a covered lift on one of the cleanest lakes in MN summers and an unheated garage off season. Due to the owners desires and it's remote location, most years was a quick pour down with cheap pink, more then a few years just a drain and no antifreeze. Never saw any problems other then I always had to poke the block holes during draining and every couple of years I would run it up during summerize with the block plugs out to clear out as much rust as I could. And there was always a lot of rust, enough that they would complain about having to clean the driveway after I left so it didn't stain. They sold the boat a couple of years ago and as far as I know it's still in service.

But what I do know is that boats and motors are always changing, trying for less weight, more power, better fuel efficiency. Maybe they changed the alloys in the block? Maybe they started seeing issues with the new FSM? Got tired of people bad mouthing the single point drain? Maybe their just CYA?

1/2 of the reason most bigger dealers in MN (years ago I did a study to find out the break even point for running on antifreeze to protect the block --- it was just under 100 engines back then) is that it's a pretty fool proof way to make sure they're safe. And doesn't require as much knowledge.

The thing that caught my eye was when they put out a second service bulletin about it. This is the first time I can think of that they released 2 SBs on the same subject. They have always revised them. That made me think that this might have some importance.

What you outline mirrors my experience on a fresh water lake in upstate NY.

engines and drivelines always outlasted the rest of the boat. Just drained a little bit of rust and some sand comes out. 30-40 year old boats … transom stringers may rot, interiors get roached but engine still ran fine. Never an issue with exhaust manifolds, only poor winterization issues

by break even point of using antifreeze, I assume you mean labor savings on 100 boats would over take cost of PG for proper antifreeze packing my running engine in huge tub vs draining ? Assume just big tub run the engine for a long time checking PG % and topping off to cover dilution ?Certainly a different ball game when you are doing this commercially and have hundreds of boats To make sure are done right…

also would second ADs comment regarding your experince and knowledge. Some of the best info I’ve seen on here, no BS.

 

[Lou C]

Ok one thing I forgot to mention, when I start up in spring I don’t get rusty water out the exhaust. So maybe that shows us something. When I pull off the elbows to check em this fall; I’ll see how the manifolds look. Usually 5 years in salt & elbows yes must be replaced but the manifolds if filled with good AF might last a good bit longer…

 

[nola mike]

Gotta say I've always held the position that most of the salt damage comes during running. I'd love to find some science on surface rust that occurs during a circulating warm water bath vs. sitting exposed to air after a fresh water rinse. If my position is wrong that would mean that salt water engines don't rust any more than fresh. It would also mean that the rust buildup is during layup and not during the season. So @Lou C , do you not have scale in your drains when you winterize?

 

[Lou C]

Well there is not much. Most years the block drains will drain without being poked. Sometimes I do have to poke em though and even if they do appear to fully drain, I always poke em just to make sure. I do agree that most salt damage occurs during the season but if we can slow it down in the off season, there might be some benefit. The worst corrosion is usually in the elbows and think of what is happening there....salt deposits, hot salt water, but the water drains out pretty quick out of them, so they are exposed to air more than the manifolds ever are. And they corrode the worst. A lot of people here replace the elbows at 5 years and get close to 10 out of manifolds. So using that logic, keeping air away from your block and intake might help.

 

[Lou C]

Now my brother has a 2020 Chapparal with a Merc 4.5 200 hp with the single point drain. Owned it about 3 seasons. I have showed him how to fill it with the -100 after draining it. BUT, I am worried about this system in our salt water. Thought:
Next fall, when we winterize, put a 5 gallon bucked under the garboard drain. Put plug in. Then open the drain. Next remove plug and measure what comes out. This way you will know if it didn't drain completely at least without taking that very complex network of plastic fittings and rubber hoses apart!
I'm guessing about 4 gallons based on what it takes to fill my 4.3.

thoughts?

 

[Scott06]

Now my brother has a 2020 Chapparal with a Merc 4.5 200 hp with the single point drain. Owned it about 3 seasons. I have showed him how to fill it with the -100 after draining it. BUT, I am worried about this system in our salt water. Thought:
Next fall, when we winterize, put a 5 gallon bucked under the garboard drain. Put plug in. Then open the drain. Next remove plug and measure what comes out. This way you will know if it didn't drain completely at least without taking that very complex network of plastic fittings and rubber hoses apart!
I'm guessing about 4 gallons based on what it takes to fill my 4.3.

thoughts?

you could probably figure out how much should drain from the 4.5 to see coolant volume on the closed cooling version and back out how much would be in the heat ex